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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,862 ✭✭✭creedp


    In all fairness in the real world people who drop €40k, €60k, whatever on a shiny new car don't drive it till it falls apart. More Green Party hogwash. Btw do you follow this Green advice?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,865 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Some people do, some don't

    The most economical way is buy a car and then drive it till it falls off the road

    As I posted above I don't personally do that and I know it costs me a lot more.

    "More Green Party Hogwash" really? buying a car and driving it into the ground is a lot better for the environment than constantly buying new cars because the CO2 generated to build them. Plus loads of cars get destroyed while they are still road worthy because people want a fancy new one.

    Any person environmentally minded will know this, has nothing to do with Green Party.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 936 ✭✭✭n.d.os


    Continuously adding pollutants to the atmosphere cannot be sustained. While it may not impact us within our lifetimes, this short-sighted approach overlooks broader consequences. Consider the COVID-19 pandemic. What if a future pandemic predominantly affected children in the western world? It’s not far-fetched to consider that our relentless consumption could trigger a catastrophic event, pushing our planet to a tipping point.

    The Green Party has made commendable progress with the introduction of bicycle lanes, electric vehicles, and the promotion of solar panel installations in residential areas. Change is a gradual process and doesn’t occur overnight. People just can't accept that because they moan about every political party and don't like being told what to do.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 936 ✭✭✭n.d.os


    EV sales have slowed down due to a price war started by Tesla that hurt EV credibility, misinformation and anti-green traditionalists talking rubbish online. Nothing else. All this shite about queueing at public chargers and range is straight out of the mouths of ICE owners.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,793 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    Looks like the EU have done a U-turn on the green path too

    While the previous strategic agenda features several mentions of the importance of both the environment and sustainability, the new draft fails to mention the word sustainability once. The only mention of the environment is in the context of “promoting an innovation- and business friendly environment”. 

    Likewise, references to supporting a “green transition” have been dropped entirely

    https://www.arc2020.eu/goodbye-green-and-fair-hello-fortress-europe-eco-ambitions-dropped-from-eu-leaders-draft-5-year-plan/



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  • Registered Users Posts: 395 ✭✭bluedex


    Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 936 ✭✭✭n.d.os


    Assuming you’re critical of climate change concerns, it’s not particularly ironic. That’s essentially the recurring response from those who hold anti-climate views. Often, it’s accompanied by a laughing emoji or an unsubstantiated complaint about the government. Unfortunately, there are no concrete facts presented, nor any alternative strategies proposed—just a continuation of the status quo with hands metaphorically tied behind your backs.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,678 ✭✭✭prunudo


    did you ever think, that maybe, the people who choose to not buy an ev, simply don't want one. The market decides demand, and currently it seems a majority of the market don't want to go down the route of ev's.

    And anecdotally, from talking to friends, family, colleagues etc, most people reckon they still have one more ice in them before they take the plunge on an ev.



  • Registered Users Posts: 395 ✭✭bluedex


    Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.



  • Registered Users Posts: 395 ✭✭bluedex


    The tone of psuedo-superiority dripping off these posts is quite typical.

    Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,258 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    A price war that reduced prices lead to a fall in sales. That`s a new one to me. But then greens as a collective are not the sharpest knives in the drawer when it comes to economics. You have only to look at their proposals for electricity generation here to see that. I posted here some time ago about my brother-in-law who took a chance on buying a new EV. After 3 months he got shot of it due to range and all the time wasted recharging at public chargers.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,258 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    So we are back to anyone who doesn`t agree with me is a climate change denier are we ?

    For a group that cannot give even an estimate of what their electricity generation proposals here would cost, and who were happily ignoring what their proposals on agriculture would do to global food security while beating us over the head with the harm we were doing to the developing world on climate change, the arrogance really is astounding.

    But then with greens, very much like all religious cults, as you alluded to in another of your posts it`s do what I say and don`t ask questions. I along with others have been asking for a cost for their proposed electricity generation plan here, what was the point in looking for Irish cattle numbers being culled, and what is up with this E.U. dodgy bookkeeping on wood burning, a game we have now become more involved in, and regarding it as carbon neutral.

    To date I have seen no answers to any of those, but as a new poster here, perhaps rather that pontificating, you can provide the answers



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 936 ✭✭✭n.d.os


    The concept is straightforward. If you’re in the market for a new car, consider purchasing an electric vehicle. Although the manufacturing process of EVs isn’t perfect, there’s no need to buy a car that releases harmful emissions in this day and age. Alternatives are available now, and even a small contribution can make a difference. The resistance to green initiatives is merely a reluctance to adapt to modern times. Alter your habits. After all, they’re just cars.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 936 ✭✭✭n.d.os


    Let me break it down then. Tesla slashed the prices of its new vehicles towards the end of 2023, compelling other manufacturers to follow suit. The Tesla Model Y is the best selling car in the World today. BYD also entered the market with low price EVs. This led to a situation where anyone who purchased a new Electric Vehicle in the middle or latter part of 2023 found themselves in negative equity, a common occurrence with new cars but further exagerated in this case. The decrease in new EV prices had a domino effect on used EVs, rendering them virtually worthless, as consumers could easily purchase a new Model Y for €44k. A three-year-old ID4 priced at €37k lost its appeal. As a result, used cars began to accumulate, dealerships ceased accepting them, and media coverage ensued, starting with Harry’s Garage, followed by Nadia, among others. This phenomenon is not confined to this country; it’s a global issue as we know. EVs have simply undergone a market price correction. Diesel cars faced a similar situation a few years ago, but it went largely unreported because many people erroneously associate EVs with a global conspiracy to control their lives. However, EVs will recover, and automakers are persisting in their efforts. In a year or two, EVs will bounce back. Purchasing a new ICE vehicle would be irrational at this point. It’s outdated technology, and automakers are phasing it out. Don’t let the misinformation spread by social media persuade you that ICE vehicles are here to stay, because they’re not.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 936 ✭✭✭n.d.os


    This isn’t about politics, my friend. It’s simply unbearable to hear people constantly disparaging eco-friendly initiatives just to oppose the government. It’s truly baffling why some individuals can’t grasp the concept that we can’t keep polluting our planet indefinitely. Don’t you worry about the legacy you’re leaving for future generations?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,865 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Also, the manufacturers said for years as the production of EV increased the manufacturing costs and battery costs would reduce, this was never a secret.

    This is article from 2020.

    https://www.fastcompany.com/90586803/the-price-of-electric-car-batteries-has-dropped-89-in-10-years

    I do admit that some manufacturers pumped up the price of cars to increase profit, standard supply and demand. With covid, more people worked from home, mileage dropped and people invested in solar which was natural then to move towards electric cars. This did not help now when companies reduced prices and people who bought at peak prices

    You would swear this never happened with car before, from 2017 when diesel was no longer wanted and people ended up with a car which they paid high money for and suddenly because of dieselgate people didn't want second hand. It was around that time the UK started to transport huge number of diesel to Ireland which still had a massive second hand market. Hence why the government had to change the import rules along with Brexit

    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/mar/04/diesel-environment-ban-tax-duty-emissions-values



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 936 ✭✭✭n.d.os


    Indeed, it was inevitable that the cost of electric vehicles would decrease. It’s true that they were initially overpriced, only to adjust to a more realistic market value earlier this year due to numerous factors. I didn’t mention your point because it’s quite apparent that EV sales have slowed even with them costing less now. However, it’s equally clear that this is due to the minimal price difference between new and used models, which allows dealerships to maintain their profit margins on older vehicles. Furthermore, misleading information circulating in the media is unfortunately leading to increased confusion among the public and I think this is the main driving force behind the drop. Also a lot of people connect EVs to politics, which is completely ridiculous when you think about it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,105 ✭✭✭Blut2


    "The government has set a target of 175,000 EV sales by the end of 2025,
    and 945,000 by 2030. Even if every car sold from tomorrow was fully
    electric, the government would still fall short, and in fact less than
    20 per cent of new car sales are electric currently."

    This is pretty much the same story across every Green "binding commitment" metric that I've seen. We're going to come nowhere close to any of them by 2030.

    It was all well and good for our government to claim they'd achieve them a decade away, but its going to get really interesting as we hit 2028/2029 and we're absolutely miles (hundreds of thousands of cars in this case) away from hitting them.

    Even just specifically on EVs, will we see massive grants given out to people to upgrade their cars? Or will the government just quietly rubbish the "binding commitment"? One of the two will have to happen, and I'd be inclined to believe its far more likely the latter.

    The completely unrealistic Green policy as usual just failed to account for real world conditions - rural people who need to drive long distances, people in cities who don't have a driveway or underground parking to charge a car, and the vast numbers of drivers in Ireland who simply just can't afford to buy a new car. Basically everyone who isn't an upper middle class leafy suburban type, ie a Green voter.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,865 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Some people are so afraid of change, they will use any excuse. It doesn't matter if the depreciation was high etc etc….you will see a long list of excuses.

    What these people don't realise is that long term it won't make a difference. Ireland has no say in terms of what manufacturers make. If manufactures all want to push ahead with electric and hybrids etc they don't care what Ireland wants to do. They will just do it.

    Plus blaming it on the Green Party is more hilarious, they are a tiny party in a tiny car market in Europe. Do people think VW are ringing them up asking them why they should make electric cars?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,862 ✭✭✭creedp


    Why is it then that current Govt policy, presumably cheer leaded by the Greens, requires 2 year old EVs to be scrapped so the owner can get a grant for a new one? Hypocrisy no?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,865 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    I have no idea what policy this is

    Not sure why you ask if this is "cheer leaded by the Greens" when you responded to a post of mine this morning saying it was ridiculous for the Green party to expect people to buy a car and then drive it till it is finished.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,862 ✭✭✭creedp


    The UK never shipped used diesels to Ireland. Irish dealers and private buyers sought them out as they were of a higher standard and better value than the Irish equivalent, even after the punitive VRT was added on.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1 David Gokhshtein




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,865 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    It was well reported at the time

    Here is an article giving you advice on how to take advantage of the "diesel dump"

    https://www.thejournal.ie/popular-diesel-imports-4190680-Aug2018/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,862 ✭✭✭creedp


    Hyundai, Kia, VW, Toyota, etc etc are more than happy to supply you with an ice at present. If they didn't, ICEs couldn't be purchased. So no Irish car purchasers are not dictating global supply of ice cars and are only purchasing what the market wants to supply



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,793 ✭✭✭roosterman71




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,865 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Toyota don't sell diesel, Volvo have stopped it, I think I seen someone else.

    Skoda and Dacia have been advertising recently to buy the last of their diesels

    If all of those manufacturers turned around tomorrow and said they will not make ICE, woudl that be the fault of the Green party in Ireland? or any party in Ireland?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,862 ✭✭✭creedp


    Which is it, ridiculous to buy a new car and drive it into the ground or perate like all functioning car markets with the norm being new car owners trade every few years releasing more affordable used cars to people who need them?

    Are you saying the Green Party doesn't cheer lead Green Govt initiatives?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,865 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    I already post on that this morning. Some people do and some don't.

    It is better financially to buy a car and just drive it into the ground, it is also better for the environment.

    You are going on about initiatives but don't want to share the ones you are talking about? I already posted I don't know about the one you mentioned to scrap a 2 year old car.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,862 ✭✭✭creedp




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,865 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,865 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    This is the taxi grant I see when I google, says nothing about 2 year old EV's

    Taxi drivers are eligible for double the normal grant when they scrap an older, more polluting or high mileage vehicle and make the switch to electric. By scrapping and switching €20,000 will be available for a new, fully electric SPSV and if the taxi is a wheelchair-accessible electric vehicle, the supports rise to €25,000.

    https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/f1623-up-to-25000-for-taxi-drivers-to-buy-electric-vehicles/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,862 ✭✭✭creedp


    My understanding from people in the business is that you can scrap a high mileage EV once over 3 years old and get a €20k grant to buy another. Not very consistent with the dictat to drive your car into the ground.

    By the way what do people who cant afford new cars do under this wonderful saving the world policy? Feck off any cycle I suppose



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,865 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    You said 2 year earlier

    I have no idea. The original taxi grant was to remove ICE and replace with electric. If the taxi drivers have found a loop hole then I have no idea about that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,865 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Looking at the NAT website it says the below, the electric car would have to have over 300k km on it. Would a ex-taxi with over 300k km have any value on it to sell back into the market? ICE or EV?

    (Please note I am not putting in the bold it is a copy and paste)

    Scrappage/ End of Life: I already hold an SPSV licence for an older (within three years of maximum permissible age as originally defined in S.I. No. 33/2015 - Taxi Regulation (Small Public Service Vehicle) Regulations 2015) or higher mileage (300,000km or greater) vehicle and wish to scrap my current vehicle to replace it.
    Note: Applicants must have held the licence for at least 3 years to be eligible.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,862 ✭✭✭creedp


    Preoccupied with diesels, well you do drive one I suppose. ICEs include petrol the last time I looked. As I said poor ignorant Paddy couldnt buy ICEs unless the market supplied them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,865 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    I would also be surprised that any taxi driver in Ireland would do over 300,000km in 3 years. They would have to drive 273km every single day of those 3 years.

    If they did it is an impressive amount of driving and at that stage I think we can all agree the car has done it's job



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,865 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    I never hid I drove a diesel. Time to start making it personal is it?

    I would never refer to anyone and especially Irish as "ignorant Paddy"



  • Registered Users Posts: 395 ✭✭bluedex


    It's a bog standard tactic from the Green zealots to claim anyone who disagrees with them, in any way, is a "climate-change denier" (not "anti-climate" or a "climate denier" which is even more bizarre and doesn't make sense). Once I see that rubbish I put them on ignore.

    Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,862 ✭✭✭creedp


    So 300k km is the definition of driving a car into the ground even if the car is running fine.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,258 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    So your take on the drop in sales of EV`s is basically that those that already own one are not trading them in for newer models because the EV`s they currently have are virtually worthless and for them to have any value on a trade in the price of a new EV will have to increase.

    Good luck with that, but in the real world of financial outlay there are two adages that cover that. For anyone contemplating buying their first "Buyer beware" and anyone that already owns one "Once bitten twice shy".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,865 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    If it is running fine then why is a taxi person buying a new one?

    Are you happy now it is 3 years and not 2 years?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,865 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    If you can point me to the "virtually worthless" EV's Im sure we would all like to buy one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,862 ✭✭✭creedp


    I must have mixed you up with another poster. Its hardly a personal attack to mention what type of car a person drives on the Motors Forum, is it?

    Plenty discussion on other threads describing people who dont want to drive electric as ignorant, as in uneducated on the benefits on driving EVs



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,862 ✭✭✭creedp


    Ah Ive just realised Im not on the Motors Forum, mea culpa



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,865 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    I drive a diesel and a EV Why it needed to be mentioned I am still struggling to see? either on Motor forum or on any forum



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,862 ✭✭✭creedp


    Just a throwaway comment on why you might only refer to diesels in the context of an ICE discussion. A bit facile I admit



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 936 ✭✭✭n.d.os


    Regarding your last comment, I'm a "rural person" and I get on perfectly fine with an EV. In fact I do a lot of long distance driving and got fed up stopping for petrol in the pissing rain a few times per week. Now I just charge at home. People who live in cities can use public chargers. Theres plenty of them in cities and at the moment one for every three EVs in the country. They also have the facility to use a bike being city dwellers. Having enough money to buy a new car comes up a lot but has nothing to do with EVs so I don't know why people keep bringing up that point.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,865 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    I originally mentioned diesel because of the high depreciation they suffered after dieselgate. To give an example of when cars have depreciated before



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,862 ✭✭✭creedp


    Semantics, hang me for a typo! The relevant issue is why is a Govt whose stated policy is to increase the number of EVs in the national fleet requiring a taxi driver to scrap a potentially perfectly functional EV in order to claim a grant for a new one?



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