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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,716 ✭✭✭Nigzcurran




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,911 ✭✭✭jacothelad


    I have wondered for a while if the departure of Lancaster and the loss of his influence on the skills and thought processes of Leinster players has a carry-over to how they perform for Ireland. It seems to be true that what is coached in to players loses potency over time.

    I have been observing rugby in Ireland since the mid 1950s. It always makes me chuckle when a player now is anointed as the best ever Irish player in his position. Recency factor at play. We'll never know because it doesn't matter and it has no value. JGP has been crowned by someone on here as the best ever………..well, he might be but I have seen quite a few great 9s playing in green. Johnny Moloney, Colin Patterson, Roger Young for example were all great players in the amateur days. With full-time training and coaching they would have been even better. I don't think there would be much difference from greats of yesteryear and current players. Sexton was a great player but so were guys like Jack Kyle, Tony ward, Ollie Campbell and they usually had to play with not so great teammates around them.

    The one thing I have garnered from almost 70 years of playing and other involvement in the game is that historically, Ireland teams that blossom and do well tend to hit the buffers rather than declining slowly. Hopefully, and it looks like it, that our current set-up leads to positive evolution. Long may it continue.

    The big dilemma really is how to make best use of the current huge numbers of young players - mostly from Leinster - while being fair to them and Leinster. I'd rather someone who doesn't make the Leinster Academy is made welcome elsewhere in Ireland rather than in England or is lost to the game. Leinster can't possibly be expected to accommodate all the riches that are flowing at the moment. It's a tricky situation…..

    Happy Easter



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,218 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    There's a lot of Leinster talent spread throughout the provinces. Apparently, Sam Berman and DeKlerk are going up to Ulster. Both of them are fine prospects. Ulster also have produced some fantastic prospects and Ward and McKillop should get academy contracts. Over the last 4 seasons Ulster have produced some very good talented u20's; Sheridan, Crothers, Hopes etc. Munster have really stepped up the prospect pool also. Expect Murphy and Edogbo to get contracts this year.

    I'd say an average of 7 to 10 u20 players will go on to have good careers. Others won't make the grade and some will not make it due to injury; Charleie Ryan, Peter Claffey, Conor O'Brien etc. I would say that the provinces would gladly accept lads from other provinces. Leinster took in McKee! Good player with a bright future. Some lads choise to go overseas and don't do well. Will Hickey, Karl Martin, Ronan Loughnane and Tadgh McElroy.

    It's a tough game scouting prospects.



  • Registered Users Posts: 379 ✭✭Stanley 1




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,580 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    when France have DuPont and Ntamack back they’ll be a different team, but in the 6N just finished, we were much better than them.

    England deserved to win against us, but over the course of the tournament we were by far the better team. No debate.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,632 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    In the 6N last year when Dupont and Ntamack were playing we were much better than them too…



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,632 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    There is an inherent truth to this, and while the gap between amateur and professional is the biggest chasm we will ever see (the players are clearly not comparable in any reasonable metric as far as I am concerned) it is also true that even in the last 15/20 years skills have evolved and changed. I don't think it is entirely recency bias - someone like Stringer would simply not survive in the modern game. If the question is who would be the best to play the game today then the answer is peak Murray or JGP.

    Out of deference I'll refrain from commenting on the Sexton point cause I think it's very wrong 😂



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,195 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Why would Stringer not survive today? He was incredibly fit and played until he was nearly 40. If Casey can play international rugby at his size today I don't think Stringer would have an issue.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,938 ✭✭✭leakyboots


    Stringer wouldn't survive? Aren't you a bit old to be playing April Fools?😂



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,632 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    The same reason Casey isn't making inroads into the Irish 23.

    That aside, it's not about his physicality. He was a one-tone scrum half that worked incredibly well at the time. The only goal was getting the ball as quickly at possible to the 10 or whoever the playmaker was. And he did that very, very well. Against modern defences having zero threat from your 9 is a problem (and before anyone mentions the HEC final try, it only worked because he ordinarily had zero threat). Now, maybe he could have adapted to the modern game - we will never know. But a player who played like him would not get very far today. That is what makes the comparisons so difficult - the type of game played by players in previous eras doesn't necessarily work anymore. It's the same reason POC's handling would be an issue today, or BOD's long range passing game.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 308 ✭✭Rugbyf565


    Would love to see Nick Timoney get a start in South Africa this summer.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,938 ✭✭✭leakyboots


    This is mad stuff. If Jean Kleyn and Stephen Archer, two big culprits of having tits for hands, can improve their handling to where they are now being latches in attack, throwing offloads out of the tackle and off the floor and pop passes… all within a season or two under their coaches Munster… then I'd dare say our greatest ever second row could manage it too. Pat Lam transformed Connacht into the best passing team in the country.

    Strings was a very intelligent 9, I'd say he'd have found a way to 'survive' in today's game or the coaches would have. As for being one-tone, like you said he was very good at it and that tone is the most important facet of his position. Look at Luke McGrath, one of the biggest criticisms of his game is his passing. He has almost every other facet going for him, great break particularly, but I'd argue that's why he got 19 caps and Stringer got 98.

    Casey is making inroads into the 23… he's got 14 Irish caps. He's still only 24. Sexton got his first cap Irish at… 24. Casey's up against arguably our greatest ever 9 in Conor Murray and JGP who has the jersey currently. Murray's time is coming to a close, Casey is the next cab off the rank unless someone else steps up. I think his progress has been steadily upwards since he made his debut for Munster, he wasn't rushed or, dare I say it, overhyped. As an aside, he has a bullet of a long-range pass that reminds me of Stringer!

    Post edited by leakyboots on


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,006 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Casey's decision making and lack of physicality will hold him back more than anything else. He goes for snipes at inopportune times, that he lacks the strength to make imo.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,937 ✭✭✭OldRio




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭50HX


    I see saracens have signed English qualified Fergus burke from crusaders

    With both smiths & Ford England are building nice depth at 10& 15



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,258 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Our discipline dis-improved during the 6 Nations, so I had a quick look at the stats (and I need to double-check this cos it seems like a mad stat, but looks right…).

    We picked up 5 cards (all yellow) during the 6 Nations.

    You have to go back 30 Tests to the win vs England in March 2021, when things first started to click for Farrell, to get the previous 5 cards we accumulated (1 red and 4 yellows).

    I think our discipline and ability to keep 15 players on the field was a large part of our success since then, so a bit of a worry that it's trending in the wrong direction.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,780 ✭✭✭✭Clegg




  • Registered Users Posts: 543 ✭✭✭Ben Bailey




  • Subscribers Posts: 41,122 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,938 ✭✭✭leakyboots


    Was that a public vote?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,807 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    It's a public vote and normally a Scot gets in, how many 6 nations player of the championship did Hogg win?



  • Registered Users Posts: 543 ✭✭✭Ben Bailey


    True, but Hogg contributed more.

    Scots supporters I know are not all fans of Russell.

    Too many Welsh @sydthebeat



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,780 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    They're public votes so you'll always see some strange selections. I like that Thomas Ramos was voted as the best 15 despite paying the majority of the championship at 10. Aki is at 13 despite never playing there either.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,021 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    Russell played well in the Championship. It's not immediately clear who was better.



  • Registered Users Posts: 543 ✭✭✭Ben Bailey


    Fair to say that Russell's contributions over 5 matches merits his inclusion. Earl played really well in 2 matches and yet was nominated for Player of the Tournament.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,006 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    VdM is a joke selection. He's so one dimensional



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,195 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Earl was excellent throughout. His stats in every department are through the rough. Should be POTY.

    Van der Merwe scored 5 tries. Of course he's getting picked, even if in the wrong position.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,006 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Penaud is an infinitely better winger. Any team of the year without him in it is irrelevant.



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,195 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    He did **** all for most of the tournament. The TOTY is based on how players actually perform in the 6N, not just how good they generally are.



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