Irish Property Market chat II - *read mod note post #1 before posting*

Won't necessarily increase the audience, though. They may also decide to match the early 90s with high Anglicanism and allow women; but with the same result.

They're absolutely chronically short of priests to preach in the mega-churches; but they're also rather short of attendees outside of ceremonies.

Anyway, while there will definitely be a few more large sites coming up for sale from this; its about as reliable a source as waiting for/expecting random factories to close down.

The poster you're claiming of "having a chip" made quite a reasonable / logical suggestion that theres a large amount of very underutilised, prime, central, land that could be used for senior housing to keep seniors living in their local communities. The only one responding with emotion has been you.

If you don't think this outcome is likely I'd point you to the fate of Protestant churches in Ireland. We've had hundreds close in the 20th century, due to the exact same factors - prime land and declining attendances. The exact same thing will happen to Catholic churches in the 21st century. Demographics are destiny, they don't care about emotions.

Nobody has suggested anything of that sort, though.

The points made have been that the church land is prime, underutilised land, that would make a useful difference if it was used for housing tomorrow. But also that its politically unlikely to happen for another decade or two, unfortunately. But that it will happen in time, just as it happened to Protestant churches in Ireland for exactly the same demographic/geographic/statistical reasons.

I don't think any of that is too controversial. The sooner the issue starts being talked about the sooner progress can be made on it too.

There's no emotion here, I'm saying there are way easier ways to get the job done. There's probably a hundred acres of waste ground in DCC, and a thousand derelict buildings.
The fact it's even suggested hints there's something else going on, especially the reference to the redress scheme.

Why knock down a church when thousands of single-story brick terraces are within walking distance from O'Connell St?

The RCC has knocked it's own churches, the one in Finglas comes to mind, but I don't see the government CPOing church land.

I don't get the sidetrack about the churches. With all the greenfield and brownfield and derelict sites about the place. Seems a random scapegoat.

Far better to be taking action against the likes of

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3470768,-6.2519303,3a,75y,94.37h,107.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sUxoVSSYQtpNP57dNwHozNg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

Than the much smaller church around the corner (which does look nice at least!)

And that place must be like that for the past 20+ years at least. And it's not just the building - it is a big site. It is being used as a surface carpark (That said, I think there are relatively recent plans to put a metro related station close to there ………. but that is only very recent)

So when do people think the crash will come ? Have been waiting for 6 years now. Properties crashed a bit in US, slowed down in UK but no respite in Ireland

Why should there be a crash?

There was no real crash in the US or UK, there was affordability issues since interest rates spiked. People are still paying more for houses in both those countries, unless you're a cash buyer.

There aren't hundreds of acres of waste ground in prime town center locations around the country, though. That was the original posters point - that church land in town centers would be ideally suited for purpose built elder living locations, in the center of their communities.

Discussing the building of much needed housing on currently underutilised land is a pretty core part of the Irish property discussion thread, I would think. A core belief expressed in this thread repeatedly is the Irish state is woefully bad at long term planning, and/or at engaging in innovative solutions for the housing market. Discussing, and planning, for the reuse of church land as it falls into disuse very much falls into something that should be done sooner rather than later.

The town center land taken up by churches is not insignificant. There are almost 3000 churches around the country, most of them in prime locations, on significant parcels of land.

Some Protestant churches remain yes, but the majority closed in the 20th century. Because they suffered from declining attendances, so were no longer viable. The land was better used for other purposes. As is now happening to the Catholic church in the 21st century in the exact same manner.

If we had 3000 odd, town center, mostly dramatically underutilised mosques or synagogues, in Ireland the exact same thing would be happening. Its nothing to do with being "tolerated", demographics are demographics. When a religion is dying its dying. Policy making (in housing especially) needs to be based on real world statistics, not emotions.

Ireland has also had plenty of synagogues closed and the land repurposed over the last century for the exact same reason as the Protestant churches for what its worth, because the number of practitioners has shrunk dramatically.

From DCC "The City Council has carried out a vacant land study of the inner city that identified more than 280 vacant sites totalling more than 60 hectares of vacant land. More than 100 of these sites are in the city centre zoned area (Z5)."

But sure let's demolish a church.

Even thinking the housing crisis is a result of lack of space is ridiculous

Seeing as there hasn't been a large increase in emigration relative to historic norms, I don't see why there should be an automatic assumption that people are leaving due to lack of/price of rentals as a primary reason. People have always left, during both good times and bad, so trying to say it is a specific part of our current society causing it is reaching. The fact we have close to 70% of 18-34 year olds living with their parents would also suggest ultimately that young people will suck up living with their parents if they think there can be a positive outcome. If they didn't see any light at the end of the tunnel, why would any of them still be here? I'd reckon, from people I know, that a lot of people living with their parents after college (well, a few years beyond college, where they've settled into good jobs) is because they know they'll be able to buy a property far sooner by living with their parents and saving more vs. renting.

Do you have any statistics that back up that we are losing our well trained graduates for ~25% of their working life? Of the people I know personally who have emigrated in the last decade, ~80% of them were gone for 2.5 years or less, a single person was gone for nearly a decade (and travelled around the world for half that time, and worked quite menial jobs for most of the time) and 4 are still abroad. Of the 4 still abroad, 2 went together as a couple and are planning to return by the end of the year (left in late 2022), while the other 2 separately moved abroad for relationship reasons. 1 of the 2 has met someone new while abroad and is planning to return in a year or two, while the other person still abroad with no plans to return left Ireland because they were in a long-distance relationship and moved to live with their partner (in their partner's country).

I'm also against rent controls, and as you say, it'll take years to fix if they are removed. In the short term, removing them will do more damage than good (as it'll allow landlords to increase rents instantly, but will take far longer to tempt new supply into the rental market). The biggest issue with rent controls is that once they've been brought in (even if they get removed again), they permanently change the dynamic of the rental market because any existing or prospective landlord will now they can be brought in or modified again.

if you’re point is about churches outside Dublin then I struggle to see your point as there is plenty of land that could be built on. Outside the major city centres shortage of land is not an issue if planning and services are well thought out.

ppl could have made mullah investing that deposit/savings(if on low rent)in stocks 😉😉…but i know what u mean

Seeing as there hasn't been a large increase in emigration relative to historic norms

We need to be careful about using "historical norms“ when measuring emigration, as for the history of the state either the Housing or jobs market or both have been in a state of dysfunction.

Both issues affect new entrants the most ie graduates.

whats dysfunctional is full employment with people paying 60%+ of their wages on rent if they are lucky

whats dysfunctional is full employment with only 10k houses in the country to buy

Even if it was inevitable it doesn't make it not dysfunctional.

In a situation where MNCs are throwing money hand over first to hire in Ireland for roles and they can't find or retain staff because of housing availability, that is dysfunctional.