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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • #31802
    aloooof
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,944 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121894420#Comment_121894420

    I know this is meant in jest, but there is the crux of a point there, Podge.

    I get the reason why all the Ireland matches have to be on in the Aviva, but given that the do, it's pretty sh*t to have 2 of the games on a Friday night for fans outside of Dublin. That does make a difference to those fans.



  • #31803
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,840 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121894662#Comment_121894662

    I genuinely read travelling supporters as away fans. Which, granted, is probably the same level of consideration the IRFU gave.

    Yes, it is not good for people coming from the rest of the country and I'm not a big fan of it in general. I do wonder what impact it will have on the supposed poor atmosphere though.



  • #31804
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,840 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121894629#Comment_121894629

    If you get 5 of an U20 side to international level at all you are doing an exceptional job. It is simply not that meaningful a barometer to success. The provinces are tasked with getting them from the talented but raw level to professional players. But lots of players from GS winning U20 teams will go nowhere.

    I also do not think any U20 player just out of the academy is going to be 4th/5th in line. Even today I'm pretty sure they would recall Burns or Carty if it came to it rather than play SP in the 6N for example. The likes of Ryan are extreme exceptions and stand out to a ridiculous degree at U20 level.



  • #31805
    phog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,541 ✭✭✭✭phog


    I would have thought the Irish coaches should be interested in all players, especially anyone that has played U20s and involved in provincial academies.

    There was a coach of a team in another country sniffing around Crowley yet Mike Catt didn't seem to know much about Crowley, who featured in the U20s Grand Slam win.



  • #31806
    phog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,541 ✭✭✭✭phog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121894451#Comment_121894451

    And you base this on what?



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  • #31807
    sprucemoose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,863 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121894662#Comment_121894662

    but sure the IRFU only care about Leinster anyway

    (couldnt help myself there)



  • #31808
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,301 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121894698#Comment_121894698

    "Didn't seem to know"

    More of your biased victimhood showing there again phog. You need to release those pearls every so often.


    From the article

    "In fairness, Catt had been well aware of Crowley’s promise before that phone call.


    “We trained against the U20s in 2020, he was very impressive. It was down in Cork. Jack was number 10 for the U20s, he played really well. I knew of Jack.


    “He’s done it all off his own back, all credit to him. Let’s hope he comes through.”



  • #31809
    Neil3030
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121894761#Comment_121894761

    I know that quote is only partial information, but it would have been a lot more reassuring if he had mentioned seeing him in action himself for Munster / u20s or seeing footage etc.

    "I saw him once when the u20s trained against us" doesn't scream "we have our feelers out"...

    But again, to stress, the quote doesn't prove they DIDN'T either...



  • #31810
    aloooof
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,944 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121894673#Comment_121894673

    Which, granted, is probably the same level of consideration the IRFU gave.

    I'd agree and tbh I think it's something that could / should be looked at tbh. I remember this coming up around the time of the All Blacks XV game vs Ireland A in 2022 which was played in the RDS and went back to find this:

    So since 2010 there's been 2 non-test games in Belfast, 1 in Limerick, 1 in Galway and 1 in Cork. And none in over 7-and-a-half years.

    By the time to AI's roll around it'll be close on a decade since an Ireland non-test Ireland game has been played outside of Dublin, unless I'm mistaken?



  • #31811
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,840 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121894698#Comment_121894698

    There about 60-70 players in the academies, many of whom get close to zero senior gametime.

    Again, even from GS winning U20s sides, the majority will never become consistent professional players. It is absolutely not the international coaches' job to sift through them to figure out which players have the potential to move on to the next level. If they are not playing senior rugby, then how on earth would the international coaches have anything useful to say to them to be honest? They don't watch the provincial academies train.



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  • #31812
    Neil3030
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121894679#Comment_121894679

    I agree with you, it's no guarantee of success. Heck, being called into camp is no guarantee of success.

    But it least refines who should probably be having some type of relationship with the senior setup.



  • #31813
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,301 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121894785#Comment_121894785

    jesus christ, the man literally says he knew of jack and he was very impressed by him.... but keep trying to prop up your mates narrative as best as you can. plus ca change



  • #31814
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,840 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121894785#Comment_121894785

    How could he have seen much of him in action for Munster or seen footage of him when the guy basically hadn't played for Munster at that point?



  • #31815
    Alessandro Vast Numskull
    Posts: 10,091 ✭✭✭✭ Alessandro Vast Numskull


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121894396#Comment_121894396

    Players have gotten injured and retired not form



  • #31816
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,840 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121894791#Comment_121894791

    The response always trotted out is that it is a function of the sponsorship with Aviva. The A game vs NZ XV presumably was in the RDS as Ireland had a match the next day and that is the only way the national coaches could be remotely involved?

    I'd agree that, in Nov at least, they should definitely aim to move one game elsewhere. There are limited options for stadiums with the level of corporate hospitality that they will want though.



  • #31817
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 36,485 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121894572#Comment_121894572

    If he had, he should certainly have considered going. A couple of years playing regularly could have done him a world of good (or not).



  • #31818
    fitz
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 9,571 ✭✭✭fitz


    There's some amount of revisionism going on here. I seem to recall when Catt mentioned in November 2022 that Crowley had called him a year before for info on how Ireland were doing things, the reaction was overwhelmingly positive that Crowley was being proactive and ambitious. I don't remember anyone at the time on here or elsewhere saying anything about why the national coaches weren't already giving him work ons, and nor sure there have been, tbh...it was too early for that in 2021, regardless of ROG's interest.

    It seems like people are just taking umberage now based on how Crowley has started to fulfil some of his potential, and using that as a standard to retrospectively apply to what the coaches should have been doing 3 years ago.

    Crowley's call showed his ambition and focus on where he wanted to get to, and that he's got the kind of determination we'd associate with Sexton. Great to see in an academy graduate, and I remember thinking more of him at the time when Catt talked about it. But trying to paint it as him being ignored by coaches he didn't yet have a direct working relationship with is just barking mad, imo.



  • #31819
    Neil3030
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121894814#Comment_121894814

    I only ever wish for bad things to happen to phog, and I want that on record.

    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121894816#Comment_121894816

    He had an u20s Six Nations tournament (albeit curtailed), and whatever else motivated ROG to try sign him, at the very least. But taking a step back, I'm not pinning anything specifically on Catt here. Comms between the senior side and fringe/promising players takes a team of staff. And there's very good evidence that things have improved a lot since late 2021 (EI Tour, developmental inclusions this 6N, etc).



  • #31820
    phog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,541 ✭✭✭✭phog


    There's a few people either missing the point here.

    The point is Mike Catt shouldn't be sitting around waiting on a call from a ballsy young fello, he should be tracking his development, sending out "work ons" to players.

    Ignore the province, the player, etc, what do the national coaches do between international windows.

    I asked today (someone decided to hijack the comment) when was the last time we've seen the national coaches at a provincial game outside of Dublin



  • #31821
    Ben Bailey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,996 ✭✭✭Ben Bailey


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121894153#Comment_121894153

    One Winners medal each from the same competition (in all it's iterations).

    Weir : Glasgow Pro12 2014-15

    Russell : as above

    Healy : Munster Pro14 2022-23

    Ahh, the heady heights of pro sport ..



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  • #31822
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,840 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121894922#Comment_121894922

    I asked today (someone decided to hijack the comment) when was the last time we've seen the national coaches at a provincial game outside of Dublin

    In context, it hardly matters as they wouldn't have seen Crowley playing.

    It is impossible for anyone in the national coaching sphere to be sending out "work ons" to a player who is not playing in matches that they can see. At that point in time the Munster academy coaches, and provincial coaches, were all that mattered to Crowley. People are setting completely unrealistic expectation on what the national senior coaching panel should be doing. Do you expect them to be watching video of academy training sessions or something?



  • #31823
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,840 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121894463#Comment_121894463

    He's essentially back in "his" place in the pecking order. I would agree that he could feel a bit aggrieved this week, but I don't agree about last week. McCloskey is never going to be on a bench in a 6-2, you need a player like Frawley there to make that work (albeit, I don't like it and I don't think it worked).



  • #31824
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,301 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121894957#Comment_121894957

    People are setting completely unrealistic expectation on what the national senior coaching panel should be doing.

    id just put that down to a lack of knowledge of the roles and responsibilities of the set up of the IRFU.

    The idea that the senior coaches dont talk to the u20s coaches (who is responsible for that pathway from age grade to senior anyway!) is simply people having an amateurish understanding of a professional set up. You can be guaranteed that the stats and analysis officers have a dossier on all the age grade players coming through the national set up. Anyone who doubts this can read todays article on Eoin Toolan and the work he was he was doing for Kurt McQuilkin as IRFU High Performance coach.



  • #31825
    phog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,541 ✭✭✭✭phog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121894957#Comment_121894957

    Not sure why you're making this out to be about Crowley


    The original question never mentioned him.

    Surely, it's a good thing for players & provincial coaches and even fans to have the national coaches attend a few games in the regions.

    Are they that busy week in, week out , when there are no national games happening or in the immediate future



  • #31826
    aloooof
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,944 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121894846#Comment_121894846

    Tbh, I think Ravenhill would be a perfect candidate. Munster do a good job of getting invitational sides down (which is something I always look forward to), and the U20's games in Cork have been pretty well received, so Ravenhill would seem to be a good fit for a game to me.



  • #31827
    Clo-Clo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121894821#Comment_121894821

    Larmour, Carbery, Byrne, Conan, Stockdale, Cooney, McCloskey etc would all argue with you

    So would Earls, Conway etc who had been dropped due to form.

    As Big Joe is playing this year who did he replace?

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • #31828
    Alessandro Vast Numskull
    Posts: 10,091 ✭✭✭✭ Alessandro Vast Numskull


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121895034#Comment_121895034

    Off the top of my head stockdale was injury as was byrne both earls and conway where injuries carbery also I think less sure on that one. Was conan a starter under farrell (didnt doris replace cj) or larmor? Has cooney ever even made an extended squad? Mcloskey was only in due to multiplr injuries

    Joe came in for ryan alright



  • #31829
    Neil3030
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121895011#Comment_121895011

    The counter discussion has ranged from gross straw man/non sequitur:

    I hope they've learned their lesson and are in regular contact with Tony Butler now.

    to snide ad hominem:

    "Like, who would track this sort of thing? Seems a bit stalkery."

    Some half-decent discussion emerged, but even it was marred by inconsistency, i.e.:

    The Ireland coaches have far too much on their plate to be keeping an eye on players who essentially have not yet played senior rugby.

    which completely conflicts with your point on there being dossiers full of data and efficient communication across the coaching hierarchy.

    non sequitur, ad hominem and inconsistency... as close as you can get to a Holy Trinity of emotional defensiveness, imo.



  • #31830
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,301 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    If you're going to counter my point, counter my point.

    If those other posters wish to debate with me, they are more than welcome to.

    Or, like phog, just make stuff up in your head and create another strawman victim



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  • #31831
    Neil3030
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121895191#Comment_121895191

    Noble of you to request your points be addressed.

    Slightly related topic. Was this you?

     but keep trying to prop up your mates narrative as best as you can. plus ca change



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