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Varadkar: "It's not the state's responsibility (to provide a home and an education)"

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,548 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Please note that I am very careful to use the words marginal and extra.

    Workers who earn below average wages in Ireland pay close to 50% marginal income tax rate on any extra earnings over 42k.

    That statement is true.

    Mean earnings of FT workers in 2022 are 54189, see CSO table EHA05.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 306 ✭✭Ivor_Guddon


    not talking about LA

    we shouldn't be rewarding single parents with homes end of



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,694 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    How would you define a mandate or responsibility for the state to house people but only some people?

    Status quo is fine, it's at the states discretion to house those it can and those who need it, however if they had concrete legal obligations or responsibilities then it would an entirely diffetent story.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭tom23


    Why not? If their husband / wife / partner is dead. What happens then?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,548 ✭✭✭✭Geuze



    The majority of people know that we are referring to marginal income tax rates on extra earnings.

    Marginal rates matter when considering extra hours, overtime, progression, promotion.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,909 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    There has been absolutely no suggestion of that



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,548 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    A good point about health insurance.

    Many people buy it out of fear. It is like a quasi-tax.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,327 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Yes and I'm specific about using median and not mean average. Mean averages are distorted by CEO salaries etc. Median is more representative of the man on the street.

    On second reading with your clarification I can see what you were getting at but that wasnt clear on first read, coupled with the common narrative of people complaining about the tax rate not understanding marginal vs total (you evidently do!), led me to a different conclusion of your post

    Using median average, no one on below average wage is paying any marginal tax.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,327 ✭✭✭✭ELM327




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 306 ✭✭Ivor_Guddon


    what happened 40 years ago in this instance ?

    i apologise but whats LA ?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 17,657 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Sounds like a comment from the 70's.

    We have moved on, the parent and child need somewhere to live.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 306 ✭✭Ivor_Guddon


    pal of mine rents out his house for €1800 and receives €1625 from the social welfare for his tenants and she makes up the €175 monthly , so yes pretty much free



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,327 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    That's different. Walk through Ballymun, Clondalkin, etc on children's allowance day and you'll see all the "single" mothers getting lone parents and children's allowance, when the partner lives with them on the QT.

    Provide death cert and you are provided with the benefit, no issue at all, but career mothers are more common than death of SO



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭tom23


    Local Authority. 40 years, they would have had a much better chance of getting a house that was well built with good neighbours and a sense of community. Now not so shure. But regardless I dont always punch down. Just sideways and up.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,327 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Same here. It is free. It grinds my gears to hear people on LA housing either complain about paying their "rent" or stating that they pay rent as some sort of justification that their house isnt 95+% subsidized



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,548 ✭✭✭✭Geuze



    Median earnings for all workers

    image.png


    Let us take 2022.

    Median = 41,823 for all workers.

    How much for FT workers? Obviously more, but not published. Let us say 45k.

    What was the SRCOP in 2022? SRCOP = 36,800


    Workers earning less than median earnings face a 48.5% marginal direct tax rate on extra income above 36,800 in 2022.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 306 ✭✭Ivor_Guddon


    that's the type of comment that has us like this

    don't have a kid unless you have the means to provide for one , not somebody else's responsibility



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 30,444 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    In that context I don't think the quote is particularly weird regarding housing? It is not the state's responsibility to make sure they have a home (in this context I'm assuming it means at least own a home).

    I'll ensure my nephews and nieces are looked after - they've a home..I don't actually think that's the state's responsibility to be honest. . . "

    I'll grant I don't understand what he is on about with the education bit. That is certainly the state's responsibility to provide.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭tom23


    Thats a different discussion. OP stated quite that Single mothers shouldn't get housed. He didn't state why.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,327 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Yes in 2022, I'm applying the 2022 median (in the absence of newer data) to the 2024 marginal rate. (I actually read the same CSO page that you screenshot, that's where my 40-42k came from)



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 306 ✭✭Ivor_Guddon


    the ones who bite back are obviously recipients of this

    I'm a single parent of 2 with a mortgage and id rather shift crap from A to B than be at the mercy of somebody else

    why don't longterm dolers be out cleaning streets or something to at least do something for their cash



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭tom23


    Not a recipients of this. Being paying a mortgage for the last 20 years. 10 to go. We are all a the mercy of someone else.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 306 ✭✭Ivor_Guddon


    simple scenario

    my friend , 47 earns €70k in a hospital and has a mortgage and bills and car loan etc and loses a tonne monthly to tax

    she gets child benefit and single parent allowance

    but nothing to help with her mortgage .............

    then you have anita who never worked a day in her life and has 5 kids and gets everything handed to her and never contributed to society , is it fair that somebody got well educated and a good job to be then bent over a barrel to pay for anita ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,564 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    ...at last, a thread just for the free market fundamentalists, how interesting boards is!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 306 ✭✭Ivor_Guddon


    but at least you are in control , and im sure you'd do everything to keep that roof over your head etc

    why are single parents who never contribute to society given everything ? why do they feel they are entitled to anything ?

    that's my point , hundreds of millions or even billions wasted every year on this bs and needs to stop



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,954 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Well, do you think the state has any responsibility to exercise its regulatory powers so as to promote the development of a functional housing market so that people can house themselves and their families?

    And if it fails in that responsibility, does it then have any responsibility to provide for them to be housed in other ways?

    I'm not really attracted by the view that there are those whom the state has a responsiblity to house and those whom it does not. That seems absurdly binary and simplistic and - as you point out yourself - it effectively leaves the state arbitrarily deciding who is in the first group and who is in the second. I think the state's role — and responsibility — is more holistic than that. If Varadkar — or anyone else, really — thinks that the state should directly house no-one, or very few people from very limited groups, then the state's responsibility to ensure a functional and affordable housing market (or some other functional way in which people can be housed) must be commensurately greater. It seems to me that the Irish state is doing neither of these things particularly well, and Varadkar seems to be in denial that there is a problem with that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,342 ✭✭✭OfflerCrocGod


    Stop listening to the words and look at the actions of the government. Anyone who thinks we've been run by a right wing tax cutting government for the last 13 odd years hasn't being paying attention. The money gets spent very little is returned in tax cuts. Which is fine by me. In theory FG would like to cut taxes in practice we have many areas that need funding and they win the majority of the budget and tax cutting gets put off. Honestly it doesn't seem so bad to me.

    I'm sure there won't be some significant change when SF get into power because there isn't that much more left over to move from tax cutting to spending.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,266 ✭✭✭MegamanBoo


    I wouldn't say it's just out of fear. Waiting times for public appointments are so bad it's pretty much a must have in my opinion.

    I guess you could gamble and put the money aside and try to pay for private services directly, but the public route isn't an option if it can be avoided at all, and you'll still be paying for a level of healthcare that's covered by general taxation elsewhere.

    With a family to cover it takes a huge chunk of my income every year, yet I'm told I live in a low tax country.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,564 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    ....theres a very good chance there wont be a sf lead government next time around, so it might be a good idea to prepare for yet another ffg one, yippee!



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,227 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Ehh sunshine we don't have free school buses.

    Now it is discounted but we still have to pay so less of the FREE shyte.

    In fact some of us didn't even get a bus for months even though we had paid for it.

    Oh and we were told to log our travel as we would be repaid so much for it because there was no bus.

    Except we still haven't got a cent back.


    Also anyone that claims education in Ireland is totally free hasn't any kids or is on social welfare.



    BTW I just love these threads as it is very illuminating to see the fine gaelers coming out of the woodwork to defend the indefensible.


    I see the comments here about how leo the leeches comments were twisted.

    Of course I suppose he might be lying much like the time he said he cared about those that got up early in the morning to go to work.

    I am not allowed discuss …



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