Clontarf to City Centre Cycle & Bus Priority Project discussion (renamed)

Pete_Cavan · 14-02-2024 01:16PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766114#Comment_121766114

Again, a cycle lane on the park side has little benefit. Again, it wouldn't remove the need to cross the road when cycling from North Strand to Clontarf! The benefits would be tiny and not worth the expense or disruption. It doesn't even negate the need for a cycle lane on the other side of the road.

The link you posted is irrelevant, that project was obviously considered to have a sound business case and was worth undertaking. Sure lots of things can be done but that doesn't mean everything is worth doing.

bk · 14-02-2024 01:20PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766275#Comment_121766275

First of all, I'm delighted to hear that a grade crossing is being put in place, for disabled users, etc. I suspect most people will end up using that over bothering to use the bridge.

So the bridge isn't needed any more, great, get rid of it!

Anyway it really wouldn't need to be removed to create a two way cycle path. Just remove that one tree in the picture and make the cycle path wider.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766271#Comment_121766271

Fixing driver behaviour would only fix one of the issues with the Griffith Avenue cycle lane that I mentioned.

It wouldn't fix the following:

Too narrow to allow faster cyclists to overtake kids, etc.
Too narrow to avoid the leafs, mud and debris in the cycle lane.
Too narrow to allow Dublin City Council street cleaner machines to fit in it.
Too narrow to avoid parked car doors being opened into the cycle path.

A two way cycle path would solve all of the above.

I'd also say that I don't think we can fix drivers behaviour, instead we have to build good quality infrastructure that takes it into account and is designed to preclude it's abuse by drivers. A proper two way cycle lane, properly protected by waist high planters on Griffith Avenue would have made for such a better cycle path.

Podge_irl · 14-02-2024 01:21PM

In the end we are talking about just 20 meters and either way cyclists are going to use it as a two way cycle lane regardless, so better to design for it.

I don't think you can extrapolate that from what people are doing while the road is a construction site.

Also, as long as we are talking about the Dutch, my main experience is with Rotterdam only, but 2 way cycle lanes are not the norm. Also a shared space would not make it better, shared spaces are the absolute worst.

Tenzor07 · 14-02-2024 01:22PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766366#Comment_121766366

To improve the safety for those coming and going from Westwood is also worth modifying that 200yr old bridge, and improving the cycle/walking path... The footbridge and trees can go too.. The entire area is a major artery into the city and needs to be fully re-imagined.. We have 88 pages of comments on the subject here and I don't think any group is happy with what's being built there currently...

It's nice to be sentimental about a 100yr old set of trees, a 60 year old footbridge and a 200yr old railway track but Dublin is a modern growing city that needs proper solutions not sentimentality...

Podge_irl · 14-02-2024 01:25PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766388#Comment_121766388

A two way cycle path would solve all of the above.

So would a proper cycle lane. The issue is not that it is one-way, the issue is that it is crap.

bk · 14-02-2024 01:27PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766404#Comment_121766404

Really, no it wouldn't!

Pete_Cavan · 14-02-2024 01:50PM

Well we didn't start off talking about just 20 metres. At the end of the day, two-way cycle lanes on the Park side isn't really an option (unless you wanted to go to battle with half the city who don't want a precedent for chopping down late numbers of mature trees being set). It would also be far worse in terms of cycling provision for locals who would have to cross the road when travelling in both directions.

You could formalise people cycling the "wrong" way for a short stretch from the eastern end of the park to east of ABR and it would work. Although it would be suboptimal imo, but as you say, it will happen regardless. It wouldn't remove the need to cross the road when heading out of town (and would force people to have to cross the road to access anywhere around Fairview or along Malahide or Howth Roads, which they otherwise wouldn't have to).

And going on about "what the Dutch would do" is complete BS. They have plenty of single direction cycle lanes, they certainly dont go to any expense or level of disruption to gain such small benefits.

Pete_Cavan · 14-02-2024 01:56PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766391#Comment_121766391

It has nothing to do with sentimentality and is entirely to do with practicality. From what you are saying, I can only assume that you are not familiar with the area given what you are advocating and that you think the benefits would be enough to justify that. You certainly have no idea of the opposition to what you are advocating or that it would result in nothing being done.

bk · 14-02-2024 02:00PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766506#Comment_121766506

It would have been pretty easy to put a two way cycle lane inside the park, instead of on the old footpath, without needing to cut down any trees.

As it is, I'm quiet concerned that people will continue to walk on the cycle path. Pretty much every time I've used this cycle path inbound, I've had to cycle around people walking in the middle of the cycle path! Now hopefully people will get use to it and stop doing it, but I fear they won't!

Tenzor07 · 14-02-2024 02:07PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766543#Comment_121766543

Yeap, well we all know that those in the local areas value trees and old bridges than providing a safe two way direct cycle/foot path.. that's the problem here in Ireland, we moan about not having things such as a proper bus transport system but will fight tooth and nail against any plans to cut down a tree or reduce a garden size to provide what's required... And our broken planning system which allows people from outside Dublin in county's 100miles away which has no bearing or relevance to them object to works being carried out..

CatInABox · 14-02-2024 03:20PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766560#Comment_121766560

Yes, the fence next to the cycle path essentially traps people in as well, so anyone that crosses the road away from the official crossing ends up walking on the cycle track for a fair distance. It's another thing that screams out to me that they didn't really think through the design of these things, because people are going to use it in the most convenient way possible for themselves, and totally ignore what the designers thought.

Tenzor07 · 14-02-2024 03:23PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767024#Comment_121767024

It's just all a massive massive compromise, a design that suits no one but allows them to say "something was done"...

Listening to NT radio this morning mentioning all the plastic bollards that we see all along the likes of Griffith ave. that all they do is keep the cyclist confined into a narrow lane, keep the dirt and grime in and don't protect the cycle lane user...

Pete_Cavan · 14-02-2024 03:53PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766593#Comment_121766593

Your use of the word direct here is it bit disingenuous. The park side may be considered "direct" for some journeys but certainly wouldn't be for any journeys to/from around Fairview or along Malahide or Howth Roads. That is a large population and probably accounts for more commuting cyclists than further out at Clontarf promenade as there are no commuters from the sea.

You seem to expect people from the area most effected to accept reduced access to the cycle lanes (having to cross the road to access to cycle in both directions) and loss of mature trees which are a defining feature. Why should people accept two things which they consider will make things worse for them with no benefits in return? Whatever about objections from elsewhere, most of the local community were opposed to mass tree removal. You seem to be the outsider whose opinion should have no bearing.

The number of people who would actually benefit from what you want is small and would be far outweighed by those who wouldn't want that. For anyone cycling to/from Clontarf from/to the city, there is no real benefit as they still have to cross to the other side of the road. There certainly isn't enough benefit to justify the cost and disruption you want to impose.

If you want cycle lanes in both directions, I have already said how that should be done on the other side of the road (while keeping the lane on the park side). That would tick that box for you and would be more "direct" for many people. That's more like what the Dutch would actually do rather than your idea.

bk · 14-02-2024 04:11PM

If you want cycle lanes in both directions, I have already said how that should be done on the other side of the road (while keeping the lane on the park side). That would tick that box for you and would be more "direct" for many people. That's more like what the Dutch would actually do rather than your idea.

A two way cycle path on the Northern side of the road makes no sense at all:

You have to interact with 12 junctions, come to a stop at traffic lights, while you have on unimpeded cycle on the park side
It doesn't solve the problem of those cycling from the Fairview Park path to Clontarf cycle path, a park side two way path would solve this.
It would make no sense for folks cycling from Howth/Clontarf to have to switch to a two way path on the other side of the road!

It really doesn't make any sense for the placement of a two way cycle path that is supposed to integrate with the exiting Howth to Clontarf one!

bk · 14-02-2024 04:21PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767044#Comment_121767044

Listening to NT radio this morning mentioning all the plastic bollards that we see all along the likes of Griffith ave. that all they do is keep the cyclist confined into a narrow lane, keep the dirt and grime in and don't protect the cycle lane user...

What bollards were they talking about? Most, if not all of the bollards have been replaced by the **** little concrete curb which barely separates you from the road.

BTW I will say, while I've seen the odd time people drive over the curb, mostly people don't. Mostly when people park on the cycle path, they do so at the parts of the path where there is no curbing.

Unfortunately there are massive areas that are completely unprotected from the road, just painted bike lane, but no true separation. This is the case at every road junction, pedestrian crossing, bus stop and any location with onstreet parking!

And when I say pedestrian crossings, I mean there is a large distance before and after each crossing with no protection. It is these spots where people park on the cycle path. For instance that car yesterday that was parked on the cycle path, right in front of the pedestrian crossing in front of one of the schools, right in front of the crossing warden!

They probably should place actual bollards at all of these locations, given the proximity to the schools, they should be those nice school pencil ones.

Tenzor07 · 14-02-2024 04:30PM

I think BK has covered your point quite a lot on this thread...

However I do find this part hilarious in relation to how protective people seem to be about a few old trees that can be replanted

Whatever about objections from elsewhere, most of the local community were opposed to mass tree removal.

When you consider that there's been a 6 lane highway running through the area for the past 60+ years.. All designed in a different era for a city that had a fraction of the amount of people and vehicles using it.. It's time for a more modern solution and if that means a few trees are cut down so be it.

bk · 14-02-2024 04:42PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767425#Comment_121767425

Ironically 100 years ago Fairview Park was literally a dump!

Citizen Six · 14-02-2024 06:19PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121765748#Comment_121765748

That bridge will likely be replaced in the next decade anyway.

Pete_Cavan · 14-02-2024 08:15PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767332#Comment_121767332

I suggested two cycle lanes on the other side of the road IN ADDITION to the cycle lane on the park side. This is achievable without any tree removal. It was just a suggestion of what could potentially be done later without dragging up lots of issues. Everything else being done now would remain.

Two lanes on the park side simply isn't achievable without large-scale tree removal. The works along the park are as good as complete, there is no chance of going back and ripping out trees to create two-way cycle lanes any time soon. And yes, trees would have to be removed to create sufficiently wide cycle lanes allowing (bearing in mind your complaints about the width of cycle lanes on GA).

Your bullet points are all frame in such a way that they are duplicitous;

Of the 12 junctions you claim, 4 are access to a back lane which get very little traffic and 5 others are narrow residential roads. The other 3 are signalised junctions. The other side is not "unimpeded", there are busy car parks with access/egress across the cycle lane
There is no perfect solution to the problem of those cycling from the Fairview Park path to Clontarf cycle path. Proposing to dig up what has been done, fell trees and alter a 200 year old stone bridge which carries a vital rail link certainly isn't a viable solution either. Maybe what you described with allowing people cycle both ways on that section could be deemed a solution but it would equally be a fudge
Folks cycling from Howth/Clontarf wouldn't have to switch to a two way path on the other side of the road, they use the existing cycle lane along the path. The two-way lanes on the other side would serve local movements on that side.

Again, two-way cycle lanes opposite the park could be in addition to the existing cycle lane on the park side. If you are saying it wouldn't integrate with the exiting Howth to Clontarf cycleway because of the need to cross to the other side of the road, you will need to cross heading out of town anyway (for the nth time). The cycle lanes on each side of NSR and Amiens St won't be changing for a very long time so the need to cross will be there regardless. Not "integrating" will apply no matter what is done.

bk · 15-02-2024 01:56PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768363#Comment_121768363

So I've just walked the full length of Fairview Park from the junction with Alfie Byrne Road to Edges corner. Some observations:

1) There is plenty of space under the rail bridge for a two way cycle path. The cycle path is actually wider then I remembered, I didn't measure it, but at least 2 meters and while the footpath narrows, it is still plenty wide. You could easily narrow the footpath a small bit and push the traffic lanes over a small bit too and create say a 3 meter two-way cycle path under the bridge.

2) There is plenty of space for a two way cycle path just inside the park without needing to cut down a single tree! The existing path is fine and wide and even has extra space that is just grass on both sides of it, if it needed to be wider.

I even took pictures and can post them if you don't believe. So please stop repeating the "need to cut trees down" nonsense.

3) Interestingly the path just inside the park is actually sign posted as a shared space! So nothing stopping folks from using it as a two way cycle path right now!

I suggested two cycle lanes on the other side of the road IN ADDITION to the cycle lane on the park side. This is achievable without any tree removal. It was just a suggestion of what could potentially be done later without dragging up lots of issues. Everything else being done now would remain.

Again, no tree removal needed!

Also I'm not sure if there would be enough space to add a second cycle lane on the road without removing a traffic lane.

But also you would need to dig up the new bus stops that have just been built to put in a two way cycle lane and rebuild the bus stops now pushed further out into the road (see above comment about road space).

That would be vastly more space, cost and disruption then simply using the existing path inside the park as a two way cycle lane.

Plus it doesn't solve any of the problems. It wouldn't solve the biggest problem of folks cycling two ways on the one way path between Fairview Park and Alfie Byrne Road.

Certainly no one cycling inbound from Howth/Clontarf would cross over to your northern side two way cycle path, when they can just continue straight on along the park and not have to stop at traffic lights half a dozen times along your two way cycle path.

It is a completely illogical idea that would cost a lot of money, with little or no benefit and not solving the problems.

And yes, ideally I think they should have built a two way cycle lane all the way from Howth to the City center. It doesn't make sense for it to be two way for half the route and then switch to one way for the new half. That is just poor design.

Of course I'm not suggesting that this will be changed now, what is done is done. But the reason I highlight these mistakes, is because while these cycle paths are better then what came before, they are still like only a 5/10 or 6/10, with obvious mistakes and error and without a small bit of extra thought they could easily be a 8/10 or 9/10.

These cycle paths feel like they are designed by someone who has never cycled. I'm hoping that they can learn from these mistakes and do better in future.

Though in this case, I do think they need to do a two way section at least between Alfie Byrne Road and the entrance to Fairview Park, that is very broken and lots of people are going to cycle two way regardless. Also Griffith Avenue needs to be ripped up and redone as a two way cycle path.

Podge_irl · 15-02-2024 02:34PM

Though in this case, I do think they need to do a two way section at least between Alfie Byrne Road and the entrance to Fairview Park, that is very broken and lots of people are going to cycle two way regardless.

I'm really not understanding what you mean by this. If people are using the inbound lane as a 2-way at the moment it is cause the outbound lane isn't there yet. Why would they cross over to start cycling against traffic?

3) Interestingly the path just inside the park is actually sign posted as a shared space! So nothing stopping folks from using it as a two way cycle path right now!

Apart from the fact that shared spaces suck for everyone which is partly why no one is going to use it.

I think it is great that you look to best practices elsewhere when demanding better facilities. But I am not aware of anywhere where 2-way cycle lanes are the standard. Cycling in the contraflow lane on them is annoying.

Citizen Six · 15-02-2024 04:04PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121770712#Comment_121770712

What's the minimum clearance needed under the bridge, if you push the traffic lanes over, as you suggest?

bikeman1 · 15-02-2024 04:08PM

I was chatting to someone today and they were told that on the shops side at Fairview and Marino Mart, they have come across far more pipes and utilities than were actually mapped! This is severely slowing down the opening up of the ground, as they have to painstakingly dig in slowly and then hoover out the muck around the pipes etc.

This is what has delayed the project on this side.

LXFlyer · 15-02-2024 04:43PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121771609#Comment_121771609

Same issue occurred on Amiens Street.

Thelonious Monk · 15-02-2024 05:37PM

was just coming back from fairview going towards north strand and there was some woman coming towards me in the bike lane, which i'm sort of ok with given the **** show the other side is at the moment, we were both slowing down and ended up having to stop to let each other pass. she then goes to say "it's a left side bike lane stay on the left", i told her it's one way and she just kept saying no it isn't no it isn't. f*cking moron, it's clearly a one way lane.

Citizen Six · 15-02-2024 08:18PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121772030#Comment_121772030

You'll get those people no matter what. And there'll be a lot that will just continue doing it even when the other side is open.

Citizen Six · 15-02-2024 08:20PM

Someone needs to get on to Joe Duffy, cyclists seem to be dismantling the old sea wall yet again. I wonder what could have actually caused this to happen. 😂

JRant · 15-02-2024 08:29PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121772735#Comment_121772735

It definitely wasn't a bus or truck...

Judging by the awful standard of work done elsewhere along the route I'm not surprised it's started to fall apart already.

Citizen Six · 15-02-2024 08:37PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121771609#Comment_121771609

Looks grand!

Pete_Cavan · 15-02-2024 09:49PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121770712#Comment_121770712

If the path inside the park is sign-posted as a shared space, then that accommodates outbound cyclists along there at least, great. Two-way cycle lanes outside the park (i.e. where the inbound cycle lane has been built) certainly would require tree removal, there just isn't enough space between the trees east of the footbridge. You could put two cycle lanes inside the park but this would make getting to/from the other side of the road difficult. The shared space does the job of outbound cyclists on that side anyway, which is likely very few as anyone coming from closer to the city centre is already on the other side of the road.

If you could get two 1.5m cycle paths under the railway bridge that would be great too. There may be space on the ground but you also need the space 3m+ off the ground.

I honestly can't believe you are still talking about someone cycling inbound from Howth/Clontarf would cross over to a two way cycle path on the other side. I have stated several times that the the cycle lane on the park side would remain, inbound cyclists wouldn't have to cross. I honestly don't know how that can be made any clearer to you!

And this conversation started with me saying that a should be removed between Annesley Bridge and Marino Mart. Needing to take a traffic lane isn't news to me! The extra traffic lane on that stretch isn't really needed as there is a lane less immediately before and after it. I said that the space should be taken to create an additional cycle lane on that side and more pedestrian space. And no, that wouldn't be expensive, you remark a car lane as the bus lane and paving the bus lane. And once again, that doesn't change anything on the other side, inbound cyclists wouldn't have to cross over.

Two way cycle lanes all the way from Howth to the City centre might be good for some people but not everyone. Everyone in Ballybough, norther side of NSR, Fairview and Marino would have to cross the road every time to use the cycle lanes. The two way cycle lanes also becomes more difficult as you approach the city centre as there is more diversity in terms of where people are going to/coming from and this is very diffiicult to accommodate at junctions, etc. Not everyone is cycle to/from the Clontarf promenade.

Clontarf to City Centre Cycle & Bus Priority Project discussion (renamed)

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