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"average Dublin house prices should fall to ‘the €300,000 mark" according to Many Lou McD.

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Comments

  • Posts: 14,769 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Make way for those who can afford by forcing those that can’t out?

    Its naive on your part to think any politician would advocate for removal of the bulk of supports.

    You do get an entry for Humanitarian of the year though.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,605 ✭✭✭DataDude


    Again, Shared Equity has had a total of 100 houses purchased in 2022 and 1,000 in 2023. Looks like it will level out at 2-2.5k or so in 2024 and beyond.

    I can see pros and cons to it, but on balance, I don’t support the First Home Scheme and would remove it if Minister for Housing.

    That said, I think its impact on house price inflation (so far anyway) would be so small it couldn’t be measured. Perhaps it will be inflationary in future but for now the numbers are so small it’s largely irrelevant.

    Agreed on HAP that there is no quick and easy way to unwind it without causing major societal issues.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,703 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Of course HAP cannot be turned off overnight, but some way has to be found to reverse the trend.

    It's currently compounding a major societal issue and the longer it goes on the worse it gets whilst also making it increasingly harder to unwind.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,419 ✭✭✭alias no.9


    The 110% mortgages were an off plans new build thing, price locked in with booking deposit, value increase before closing so 100% mortgage on inflated value at drawdown despite fixed price. They were short lived before the bust.

    In the last few years, the loan to income cap has been the only thing keeping a lid on prices, the recent increase in the loan to income cap was a mistake when it was really kicking into action in Dublin.

    The big risk in keeping the loan to income as it was may have been a reduction in construction output. I'm convinced this would have been temporary until site prices reduced accordingly but politically, any reduction in output would have been catastrophic given current demand.



  • Posts: 14,769 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    There may be tens, possibly hundreds of thousands who rely on subsidies for a roof over their heads who disagree with you. If you unwind it, what would you replace it with, and what would you do about the mass evictions which would result?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 333 ✭✭Hawkeye123


    The CEO of the Government`s housing agency reckons the way to bring down housing costs, is to build more houses.

    So the 200 billion euro borrowed to re-inflate the housing bubble of 2008 isn`t the problem?

    I think we need a new CEO of the government`s housing agency.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,349 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    Building more houses is the right way to bring house prices down.

    That is pretty obvious.

    There is no housing bubble. There are too few properties available and plenty of folks that can afford to pay top money for them.

    Huge demand, small supply.

    Thats why average 3 bed prices in Dublin wont drop near 300k.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,265 ✭✭✭Emblematic


    He is correct that it is a major part of the solution. The other part is control of immigration. Both are needed.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,703 ✭✭✭hometruths


    I'd phase it out over a coupe of years to ensure anybody earning over 36,800 did not receive any rental support.

    Eg Those earning over 50k first, drop it 10% a month.

    Simultaneously I'd remove rent caps and offer landlords the same reliefs as rent a room scheme but apply it to individual properties - i.e If gross rent from a property does not exceed €15k per annum then it is tax free. Landlords could apply this to multiple properties.



  • Posts: 14,769 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Given the current demand from income earners who do not need subsidies, what would you do with the people who could no longer afford rent without subsidies when they are evicted? Maybe you think rents would drop, unlikely in the short term given the demand for rental accomadation.

    And more pertinently, which government party would risk their policies making tens of thousands more homeless?

    I can’t help but get the sense that you favour those who don’t avail of subsidies at the expense of those who need them. What you advocate could cause an exponential rise in evictions as rent becomes unaffordable for an enormous cohort of income earners who currently need subsidised rent, those that can afford it will get the accomadation they want, LLs continue to get high rents.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,320 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    ...definitely shouldnt escalate our housing issues, as im sure, 'the market' would appropriately respond, and quickly build the properties required!



  • Registered Users, Subscribers, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,703 ✭✭✭hometruths


    No doubt it is politically difficult because that's exactly the attack line that the precise policy above would generate.

    But what if a housing minister said

    "Current average rent in Dublin is €2300, on tens of thousands of properties we're taking in just under 15k on tax revenue from landlords on that, and then sending that €15k in tax revenue back out into the market in rental subsidies which are fuelling higher rents.

    Can we try and restructure it to achieve same cost for government - reduced tax revenue from rent is offset by reduced spending on supports. The net result in the after tax rent for landlords would be broadly similiar. But market rents for tenants would drop dramatically."

    Is that so bad? Can we suck up a tax break for landlords that would a) save the taxpayer in the long run and b) dramatically reduce market rents.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Subscribers, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,703 ✭✭✭hometruths


    I should add that I'd also hammer landlords with a very stiff vacancy tax to ensure none thought it would be better just to leave property empty or airbnb it or whatever.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,703 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Imagine you're a landlord renting a flat to a couple in Dublin on HAP at 2300 per month, and you're receiving 1150 from the tenant and 1150 from HAP. And you're paying out approx 1150 a month in tax on this rent.

    The government tells you that your tenant's HAP is being phased out, but on the flip side if the rent you charge is less €15k per annum it is tax free.

    What do you do?

    a) Evict the HAP tenants and find another private tenant that will net you €1150 per month?

    or

    b) Reduce the rent for the existing tenants that will net you €1250 per month?

    Assuming you're happy with the tenants the logical decision is (b)



  • Registered Users, Subscribers, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,703 ✭✭✭hometruths


    And regarding the threat of mass evictions there are such things as notice periods. 5 months notice if you've rented for more than 6 months.

    So if every landlord decides to evict their tenants whose HAP is being phased out you will have thousands of tenants being given 5 months notice simultaneously.

    And you will have thousands of rental properties vacated and looking for new tenants.

    The govt should introduce a vacancy tax to ensure no more than two months vacancy between tenancies.

    So the tenants have 5 months to find new accommodation and landlords have two months to find new tenants.

    If the asking rent on these newly advertised properties is €2300 but the thousands of tenants looking for new rentals cannot pay €2300 without HAP then the landlords will have to drop their rent in order to fill them.

    Faced with a choice of dropping the rent to the €15k (1250 per month) or a stiff vacancy tax if they hold out for €2300 per month, what are the landlords most likely to do?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,696 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    It's 2024. Regardless of the rights and wrongs of what we did in 2008, it's water under the bridge now, banging on about very much isn't part of the solution and is not remotely in that guy's job description.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,344 ✭✭✭Blut2


    You build social housing and move the HAP tenants into that. As things functioned in previous decades.

    Moving most of the 60,000 households on HAP into social housing benefits everyone - more security for the tenants in question, reduced private sector rents for everyone renting by removing a chunk of the market, and decreased spending by the government to the benefit of every tax payer in the country.

    HAP is just an awful, expensive, wasteful, policy for everyone apart from landlords.



  • Posts: 14,769 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Pie in the sky stuff.

    You want to build another Ballymun for people receiving HAP? What are you going to do if they don’t want to leave the areas they are in?

    As for your last sentence, I’m sure those in receipt of HAP appreciate it. It just suits your narrative to ignore the recipients and hurd them into social welfare estates.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,320 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    ...this would need to be very carefully done, you cant just up end people out of their communities, into other communities, without inducing serious social problems, this wouldnt be easily implemented.....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,473 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    While it might not be the most palatable thing for some people, eventually you reach the point where beggars cant be choosers.

    Otherwise you end up in the current, ridiculous situation where people are refusing free houses becuase it doenst have enough stable space for their horses.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,320 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    ...grand so, lets unleash a whole pile of complex social problems including a rise in addiction, mental health problems and of course crime, im sure it ll all be grand in the end.....

    ...cause they are in fact the most common outcomes from uprooting a while pile of people and plonking them somewhere else....

    ...and who will pay for all of these induced issues, oh us the taxpayers of course, shur be grand.....

    ...thank fvck none of you have a say in the potential implementation in any of these ideas lads, some of you would just love to create mayhem!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,344 ✭✭✭Blut2


    We built almost 10,000 social houses a year during the 1970s, when we were one of the poorest countries in Europe with a population not far off half of what it is now. And plenty of other countries in the year 2024 are still building large amounts of social housing. Theres absolutely nothing stopping us from doing the same now other than governmental policy, its not remotely "pie in the sky stuff".

    Nobody in 2024, anywhere in the world, is building anything like Ballymun. Do a little reading on modern social housing projects to educate yourself.

    Whats your alternative, that we just allow HAP to keep growing, at a cost of billions of euros to the state? Further crowding out more and more renters from the private rental market every year, using their own tax euros against them?

    Most people on HAP would prefer to be in a permanent home of their own, not stuck in the private rental market subject to eviction at a landlord's whim. The same as anyone else in the rental market.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,473 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Is your starting point that these locations don't suffer from increased social problems today?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,320 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    yes some of these areas may already suffer from increased social dysfunctions, such as those mentioned, but uprooting a load of people, and moving them elsewhere, would more than likely lead to a significant increase in these social dysfunctions including increasing crime rates, as social connections are abruptly broken and in cases severed permanently....

    for example, if moving means moving further away from employment, schools and other critical social needs....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,045 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    Mary Lou is one of the greatest advocates of population increases and ‘let everyone in’ carry on… but then when people complain about that she blames the government…. SF and herself talk out of both sides of their mouth, so if you think the housing crisis is bad enough now…. Wait until you see it after a couple of years with her and SF running the show !

    not only will you struggle to attain housing the same will be true, of everything from healthcare to basic administration like getting a passport replacement…. Getting access to a state physio etc… everything….

    if SF are going to build X houses and apartments… where are they to be built ? They say on their website that it will be ‘ public land ‘, but what public land ? They don’t elaborate further which is a little strange. Maybe they can tell us “ hey, we’d take X land in X location, repurpose it for housing “… not very hard ! Maybe the Phoenix Park, Lough Key ? The Burren ?

    the average house prices won’t fall. In Dublin as of CSO figures when I checked recently …. €430,000 was the average house price..

    so with demand for housing and the population spiralling upwards and less places available to build…. ! What is the logical likelihood ? Yes prices continue to spiral upwards… you can’t cap them, not legally….. EU law prohibits it as far as I’m aware.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    As I said many times, the only advantage I see from a Sinn Fein government is they might, not guaranteed, stop blocking houses/apartments like they have been doing for the last years.

    As you say it's all noise from the party, nothing add's up but of course a few people will lap it up because they have the attention span of a goldfish and don't want to know more



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,349 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    The answer is clearly for the councils to start building (and owning) their own homes again, whilst delivering mixed developments. Social housing, cost rental and affordable.

    Social housing and cost rental should not be sold off and kept on the booms of the local council, since they are entirely owned by the tax payer.

    But there seems to be no appetitie for the govt to actually build homes,.

    The govt are, in the main, just the enablers for the private sector to build.

    Will we ever see large scale state delivery of homes again?

    I dont know.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,320 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    ...again, reelecting ffg, will probably help resolve our most prominent issues!

    ...yes all our political parties are talking sh1te, all of them!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,349 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    SF likley would stop blocking permissions because it would be in their interest to see the housing stock rise, but their attack on investment funds means fewer devrlopments will be constructed in the first place, which means a decline in new homes.

    Approving a new build estate is pointless if there is no money to build it and a SF led govt, through the blocking of financial investment funds, will oversee a reduction in new homes to market, not an increase.

    Its a turkey voting for xmas if people vote SF and want to see more homes being built.



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