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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 32,765 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Is that really how sports work?

    Yes? In the highest level games of the season so far there was a clear difference between the two players. JGP controlled the games for Leinster and helped put them in the right parts of the pitch far better.

    Also, at the end of the day, there is nothing Casey can do about his size which will always be an issue at the highest levels.



  • Posts: 2,692 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    If his size was an issue he wouldn’t have been in Ireland squads at all. There is no point grooming a potential successor at 9 who is too small. Especially when Doak is available who has all the size in the world.

    To be more clear about this, if they had doubts about his size they probably would have waited until he proved it at his province before calling him up. Everything about his career trajectory feels like he is annointed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,836 ✭✭✭Ben Bailey


    Doak = Murray 2.0



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Oh plenty of players get "annointed" but it doesn't always happen that way



  • Posts: 2,692 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Absolutely, it might not. What i mean is that i doubt they would have poured all those resources into him if they had serious doubts about his size.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Who else is knocking around at the moment as a 9 in that age grade?

    Doak is really the only one and has struggled to get past Cooney and is playing at a province who are not playing great.....

    I have liked Casey from day 1 and love his speed in the game but we need others to step up and challenge him. Murray after all went past everyone in the space of a few months and still is class



  • Posts: 2,692 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Why would they need someone at that age range specifically? There are tons of positions in the squad with no developmental 21 year old hanging around.

    Murray is one of the best scrum halves in history and emerged at a time when he was exactly what everyone wanted. Not exactly a fair comparison.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Why not a fair comparison?

    One minute you say he is anointed and the next you are saying it's not fair to compare him to another player. All while saying he should start ahead of JGP? Not really adding up is it?

    It make sense to have a mix of 9s in the team, they have done similar with 10s.....



  • Posts: 2,692 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Because there might never be another 9 as good as Murray in Ireland lol.

    I really don’t get why this is a tough concept. You don’t call someone up that early, put that much time into them, 13 caps, if you aren’t sure about their size. People stop growing at like 19 generally, and there is very limited mass he can put on that frame. If he is possibly too small for international rugby now, that was also the case at 21. You don’t spend all those resources on a guy you have fundamental doubts about, when that doubt is impossible to change. It would be incredibly dumb.

    He got his first cap before he even started a champions cup game. That’s pretty annointed.

    Edit: maybe his size blinds fans to how many signs there have been that he is the next guy in the eyes of the coaches.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 32,765 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    If his size was an issue he wouldn’t have been in Ireland squads at all

    This is not remotely true. You can be the second or third best option and still have limiting factors to your game. Hell, you can be the first choice and have limiting factors depending on what players are available.

    They are not grooming a potential successor, he has been a pretty consistent third choice scrumhalf for Ireland for the last couple years because he is considered the third best scrum half available to Ireland. I'm not even sure he'll have pushed past Murray as the bench scrum half as it is a different skill.



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  • Posts: 2,692 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    There is no way in hell he was the third best scrum half in ireland when he was first called up. That’s nonsense. You call guys up and play them that early when they have significant upside.

    Are there even any other examples of guys called up that early who were thought to be just potential squad players? Or had clear limitations that they are unsure about?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,811 ✭✭✭sprucemoose




  • Posts: 2,692 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Yea, that’s a good one. He has been done by injuries. Other than his injuries though he doesn’t have clear limitations.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,819 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Yea, I would say the job will be Casey's and deservedly so.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,819 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    I wouldn't say there's much difference in size between Casey and Park. A couple of inches? I'm at work and concave time to look up the bios! They're similar players. Casey has a bright future, imo.



  • Posts: 2,692 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    He’s 4 inches taller. JGP is the height of an average man whereas Casey is legitimately short.

    Casey has one of the best passes i’ve seen, on time, accurate and very fast. He also can pass extremely accurately over long distances. That’s his standout skill to me.

    I would like to see Doak and Blade mixed in if Murray leaves/retires in the summer. Blade to me is basically always underrated especially.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    JGP is 5'9" and 83kg vs 5'5" and 75kg. Not night and day but one of them stands out as very small even in comparison to other outhalves.

    I think Casey can still be a little headless in his play and his kicking continues to need work but he's a really good player. I don't think there's much doubt over who will be starting in the 6N but time is going to catch up with JGP in the next 1-2 seasons and maybe sooner. But his fitness is still superb. On the Larmour try last weekend, he clears the ball from the ruck on the far side of the field in his own half and three passes later, he's being taken down on the sideline on the opposite inside the 22. He's ahead of any other option in terms of how he reads the game and supports play.

    Casey's kicking game has come along hugely from a few years ago but is still inconsistent also which is going to be a factor in test selection. I think if he made the 23 it would be a good step for him and then potentially get a start at home against Italy and/or Wales.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,759 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    I'd agree with lots of that; I think his kicking has regressed this season, particularly box-kicks, which he seems to be getting too much on, which doesn't let the support compete. But in the previous 12-18 months, it was consistently excellent (and occasionally game-changing for Munster).

    If he can get back to that level and consistency, the upsides of his game (imo, the best passer of the ball on the island) far outweigh the downsides for me (his size in particular).

    Personally, would love to see him off then bench in a couple of games in the 6N's.



  • Posts: 2,692 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I think in at least one of those games they were purposely kicking them non contestable most of the time. Maybe didn’t want scrums.

    Edit: based on them always being long by similar amounts.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,759 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    I've honestly wondered about that this season, tbh, and had this exact conversation with a friend just last weekend. It's been happening so often, makes me think it might be by design.

    I did see a stat a few weeks ago that we retained possession from Crowley's kicking a high % of the time, so maybe we're using his kicks (cross-field or otherwise) for contestables, and Casey's for exits?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,209 ✭✭✭Mr Tickle


    Yeah Blade is unfortunate in that Casey is a similar player who came on the scene at the same time as Blade was really stepping up a few gears.

    Imo it's only this year that Casey has actually become a the better player of the two. I'd have thought Blade was a few percent better, and had more experience. Casey had the benefit of being almost as good and looking like he has room to grow considering his age. Farrell was only going to have a few game to put mins into either of them before the WC so Blade loses out completely.

    If Farrell had taken over a few years earlier I really think Marmion or Blade would be fairly well established in the Irish setup.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Blade is in a battle with Murray/JGP for his spot. Not for the Casey spot

    Thats my opinion on it, Casey is the young up and coming 9, so Paddy Paterson, Doak etc are in the battle with him



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    The Ireland A match made a lot of people think about Casey height, clearly a joke but I think people get something into their head and go with that

    I don't think Casey height is an issue to be honest.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,209 ✭✭✭Mr Tickle


    That's fair And I agree to a point. Which is why i was saying Blade was probably be next best 9 available, but Casey had the benefit of fitting the "young, up and coming" role better.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    I rate Blade highly but he kind of got stuck with Marmion and didn't get the game time he might have needed, that my opinion and could be wrong.

    Now he is the starting player but is nearly 30, maybe if Murray drops out or heads to France he might jump into that slot as he is clearly the next best

    Honeslty I think Doak is the future but he needs to get past Cooney and probably needs Ulster to start playing better.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,209 ✭✭✭Mr Tickle


    Marmion probably deserved more game time than he got for Ireland too. I don't know that he ever played a bad game for Ireland but he just wasn't what Joe wanted from a 9. Then the two of them were duking it out in connacht for a while and might have actually suffered a bit. I remember reading/hearing more than once "__ won't make it into the irish team when they're not even first choice in Connacht". I can't remember where I saw that one but it was more than once.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,759 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Agreed, always felt Marmion was very unlucky not to make it into the RWC 2019 squad.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 13,942 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    I know Doak hasn't been as good this season, but I think Farrell really missed a beat by not bringing him into camp. If they can bring in Casey despite him being green and inexperienced, because he's young and promising, they could do the same with Doak. He's the most obvious replacement for Murray, who should have been retired.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,759 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    And Casey is the obvious replacement for JGP. Given the type of game we play, I think it makes sense to have Casey there ahead of Doak. He could have included Doak too, but there comes a point of diminishing returns with including players.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 13,942 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    I would've gone for JGP, Casey and Blade, with Doak there in the same role as Prendergast.



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