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Enoch Burke is The Prisoner

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,787 ✭✭✭randd1


    When it comes to the Burke's, it's spelled 'Wacko'.

    Just a thought. If indeed Young Enoch has decided his religious beliefs were being violated (which they weren't) by the school, then the question really needs to be asked, why should Enoch Burke's religious beliefs be allowed to dictate school policy? If indeed his argument is about religious freedom and right to one's own held beliefs, is it not more appropriate that all religions or non-religious beliefs be equally respected and acted upon in a fair manner?

    Or more to the point, that religious opinions be kept to oneself? If Enoch Burke's belief his religious beliefs has been compromised, and someone else believes theirs has not, then who's belief do you side it with?

    And one aspect of the freedom of religion is also the freedom to believe religion and religious ideology is stupid and inherently wrong? In that scenario, who's right?

    The point is, there's no argument that can be made by Burke that this is about religious freedom, when by demanding his religious views be given primacy, he is therefore advocating for religious intolerance and the imposing of un-wanted religious instruction upon others, thereby negating his own original argument. Or as it's known, hypocrisy.

    An utterly hypocritical argument should not be the basis for an objection or a defence, be it legal or otherwise.

    All of which is bollox, given he's in bother not for his religious belief, but his ignorant behaviour. But it does display how utterly hypocritical, stupid and fundamentally ignorant his own argument is.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,419 ✭✭✭hoodie6029


    Their ‘wise’ advice landed Simeon with a conviction that he could have easily avoided.

    This is water. Inspiring speech by David Foster Wallace https://youtu.be/DCbGM4mqEVw?si=GS5uDvegp6Er1EOG



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,768 ✭✭✭Tork


    If they keep getting into trouble like this, they'll run out of family members to come along for the shouting.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    I presume this was during one of the Burkes' various explosions at Enoch's own court appearances. We knew they had been physically removed from the courts at various points - clearly they "resisted" when the Gards moved in. Wonder how much assault we're talking here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,522 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson




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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    7th March... this was the day Simeon was charged with public disorder as well - and the day Ammi landed on her ass.



  • Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 78,509 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Posts deleted as this is before the courts

    I will re-post the link for information, but no discussion of the court case against Sean Burke permitted




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,827 ✭✭✭✭Purple Mountain


    I posted this ages ago in this thread..

    I asked..how many colleagues/pupils/parents have stood beside Enoch in that school and muttered prayers, blessed themselves, bowed their heads during school masses/assemblies/services all the while not actually believing or buying into what they were expected to participate in by virtue of attending/working in a COI school.

    Same up and down the country. There are not enough non denominational schools for non believers/non plussed children to attend or staff to work in.

    I haven't heard of these people in the media asserting that their rights to non belief are been denied.

    To thine own self be true



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Or, to flip the coin, what bout the freedom of expression of athiest teachers working in religious schools regardless of affiliation? Shouldn't they be allowed right to refuse to teach religious education or train kids for sacrmients? (I assume the training is till done by teachers - correct me if I'm wrong)

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,235 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    A lot of atheist teachers teach in religious schools

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,270 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    To be fair atheists are probably better informed on religious matters.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Generally, they'd have to lie their way through the interview process to do so, given that 'Faith' is often a marked and graded interview criteria for teaching posts in religious schools, certainly primary schools.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭scottser


    nah, you don't have to lie at an interview, you just need to acknowledge that the school has christian ethics and that you're happy to teach the syllabus in that context. it's not a big deal. it's like a barista who doesn't really like drinking coffee but that shouldn't stop them from knowing how to turn out a decent flat white. in burke's case though, it's like asking for a flat white with soya milk and being harangued out of the coffee shop for being a vegan weirdo by the barista.

    anyway, the ethical side of this is a moot point. burke had a duty under the law and the terms of his employment contract to ensure all students and colleagues in the school are treated equally and with respect, which he failed spectacularly to do. he should never be allowed to teach again.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You are literally graded on your Faith at interview. If the other candidate makes a big deal of their own faith, their mass attendance, their devotion to the patron saint that the school is named after, their participation in extra curricular retreats and extra classes, they're going to get the job, not you.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭scottser


    Sample Interview Answers 2 - Irish Primary Teacher

    you're not 'graded on your faith'. you might be asked how to promote and work within the catholic ethos of the school, but that's easily answered.

    you can't discriminate against someone on the basis of their religion. ability to teach within a religious context is another thing altogether.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I've seen primary school interview outcome reports with candidates getting marks out of ten for their faith. That's how it works, and religious schools absolutely CAN discriminate based on religion.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 31,142 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    The primary teacher is not given any options apart from promising how religious they are, according to your link. It even skates around whether this is a question and answer situation by just giving bald statements about what the interviewee would be doing. Presumably if you can remember those four sentences and recite them you will be ok. (sarcasm)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,203 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    Presumably if you can remember those four sentences and recite them you will be ok.


    I know it’s sarcasm but yes, that’s it really. They’re sample questions and answers though, they don’t answer the question as to whether or not a candidate is asked about their religious affiliation or beliefs.

    Candidates aren’t graded on their faith in the way Andrew suggests; they’re part of a set of competency questions to give candidates an opportunity to demonstrate their ability not just to impart the faith, but also how they would promote it. That’s why the answers provided to the sample question would be expected, it’s what candidates would have been taught on the course to obtain their religious certificate which is evidence that they are qualified to teach in religious ethos schools of that particular faith.

    Enoch’s circumstances are different though. He knowingly and willingly violated the school’s policy of non-discrimination. His religious beliefs were and still are his own business. He’s not the victim of unlawful discrimination, he knows it too, but that’s more of a side-point as far as he’s concerned - he’s got the attention of the Courts.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    And how do they compare the answers of say six different candidates to the competency questions?

    By coming up with a score for the Faith category.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,937 ✭✭✭downthemiddle


    Are you an assessor for interviews at primary level?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,203 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    THE faith Andrew, not their faith (or indeed lack thereof). It’s assessing their competence to impart and promote THE faith. The only time their faith or indeed lack thereof in terms of employment might be an issue is when their employment could lead to the undermining of the ethos of the school.

    Enoch’s faith, or his personal religious beliefs aren’t in question. What’s questionable is his competence as a teacher and whether or not the school’s disciplinary process was fair, and whether or not they acted in accordance with Irish employment law. Enoch has purposely avoided helping himself by his further contempt of court.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    No, I was a member of a primary school Board of Management, and interview results would regularly come before the Board for ratification. These including points for each candidate for faith.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,937 ✭✭✭downthemiddle


    There is so much wrong with your perceptions of the interview process. I am an assessor and I can categorically assure you that candidates are not awarded points for "faith" nor can they be questioned about their own religious faith. The purpose of the interview board is to recommend the best candidate to the BOM for ratification. A breakdown of the scores for each candidate under the different criteria should not be provided to the BOM.



  • Posts: 7,522 ✭✭✭ Magnolia Hissing Youth


    So you are basing your argument on one school?

    I asked my cousin about this as a primary school teacher, just out of curiosity.

    I can tell you without a doubt discrimination based on religion is absolutely a no no.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,235 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    But they are not scoring the person on their own faith, they are scoring the person on how they would teach faith

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,171 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Schools are rarely in a position of being flooded with candidates anyway these days



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Had kinda meant to say the same: I can't imagine schools have their pick of candidates when trying to get new teachers; sure a religious school might prefer someone who says all the right things but nor is the market so strong they can be discriminating either. If schools are anything like pre-school childcare there's a chronic shortage of teachers (heck there seems to be a chronic shortage of all vocations as our populations increase but that's another thread entirely)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,657 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    A teacher friend of mine was kinda talking about this to me the other day. When her and her college pals graduated around 2010, if you landed a job it was like winning the lotto.

    Now, they are literally crying out for teachers to apply.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,739 ✭✭✭Quitelife


    My children go to a Catholic school and id expect the teachers to be teaching some Catholic stuff, cant see anything wrong with that .

    If youir a teacher that doesnt like catholics why not go to a non religion or protestant school to teach ??



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,171 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Because there are insufficient quantities of those in existence



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