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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,759 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    None of those definitions say it's the only reason for sub-optimal performance.

    In short, every example of choking involves sub-optimal performance. Not every example of sub-optimal performance involves choking.



  • Site Banned Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭Musicrules


    In short, sub-optimal performance when under pressure is choking.

    Do you have an issue with the definition of choking in sport?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,079 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    How do you manage to keep bringing this thread back to this crap?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,759 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    I mean, one of the definitions you've used comes from a paper that says the following :P

    Thus, the current position paper will: critically analyze current choking definitions and explore why they are not appropriate operational definitions.

    It seems they agree with me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    Yes. The issue is that you are omitting the crucial mechanism that distinguishes choking from other types of sub-optimal performance under pressure:

    Failure to execute routine / proceduralized skills.

    Changing a gameplan isn't choking.



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  • Site Banned Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭Musicrules


    They are doing that to decide which slight variance in definition is correct. Not that sub optimal performance while under pressure is choking. So no, they don't agree with you at all. 🤣



  • Site Banned Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭Musicrules


    They didn't change a gameplan. The occasion made them play within themselves and not with the freedom they have played with for the previous 2 years. Your stats back this up. They played with fear. On top of that, they did fail to execute routine skills.

    That matches all the definitions of choking I've provided for you. You're welcome by the way.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,759 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Slight variance in defintion?

    You literally haven't read what you're quoting at this point.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 32,765 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl




  • Site Banned Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭Musicrules


    I have. You've picked one paper which aims to clarify the exact definition of choking and decided that this means they agree with you. Even though they have done nothing of the sort. It's laughable. 😂



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,759 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    The media recognizes that choking is a dramatic drop in performance, whereas researchers have labeled choking as any decrease in performance under pressure. 

    And you're labelling this as a "slight" difference in definition.

    Laughable indeed.



  • Site Banned Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭Musicrules


    Why don't you just quote the whole thing? Oh, it's because it shows that they don't agree with you at all. 😂

    'In sport, choking under pressure is a negative athletic experience that may have psychologically damaging effects. The media recognizes that choking is a dramatic drop in performance, whereas researchers have labeled choking as any decrease in performance under pressure. This discrepancy between the media's and researchers' perception of choking leads to ambiguity among terms and confusion among researchers, applied practitioners, and the general public. Thus, the current position paper will, critically analyze current choking definitions and explore why they are not appropriate operational definitions; explain the current underperformance and choking terminology debate, offer an alternative choking definition that should be debated, and also identify ways that researchers can improve the robustness of choking investigations. It is hoped that this paper will stimulate debate and improve the quality of future choking research.'

    And this is one paper of the many I provided. So yes, laughable indeed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 6,045 ✭✭✭jacothelad


    Can a grown-up please stop this utter twaddle. Take this bilge to p.m. and spare the world from self-immolation to end it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    I think all I'll be a long time internetting before I see a more preposterous argument than the team who passed the ball more were playing with fear.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,538 ✭✭✭ersatz


    @Musicrules appreciate the analysis.

    It’s impossible to conclude that the team choked, anymore than it is to say a lack of rotation led to fatigue, or that we got our tactics wrong, but most importantly, in a tight game where nerves were inevitable given the recent history between these teams, NZ got their tactics bang on and imposed enough discomfort on us to get them over the line. Watching that final drive I never thought we’d score, largely because NZ looked comfortable throughout and with every phase the likelihood of a mistake increased, eventually exponentially, and we just couldn’t get far enough fast enough. I’d have been just as confident Ireland would have soaked it up if the situation were reversed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo




  • Site Banned Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭Musicrules


    You think passing the ball means you can't be playing with fear? You might want to rethink that.

    The players were afraid of making mistakes, of taking risks. This, along with the stats you provided, the basic errors, the missed kicks, the loss of energy some players displayed etc meets the definition of choking.

    It was a sub optimal performance while under pressure.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 32,765 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    MOD: New Year New Thread

    If we must discuss this again, fill your boots til Dec 31st. But let's move on after that to focus on the 6N.

    There will be short shrift to anyone discussing ireland choking or not performing when it matters when 6N season rolls round.



  • Site Banned Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭Musicrules


    It's all about opinions but we went from beating them by 9 and 10 points away from home to losing by 4 in the quarter finals. We went from the best team in the world to a team far from that. It was a major drop in performance. I think there's enough stats and analysis to back up my opinion that it was the occasion which caused the drop. You may think different.



  • Site Banned Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭Musicrules


    If you're a mod, if you can't win an argument you can just ban discussing it. Like a young lad taking his ball home after losing a kick about. 😂



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  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 44,832 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    This isn't a discussion.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 42,675 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    A team doesn't choke, that's the most ludicrous statement I've ever heard. Individual players might but there's certainly plenty of them that don't.

    And saying a player choked because he had one bad performance is ridiculous too. You don't know if he was ill or simply just having a bad day. These things happen. If a a player doesn't perform in big games on a couple of occasions then it's reasonable to believe he has a problem but not until he's been poor at least three consecutive times.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,538 ✭✭✭ersatz


    I don’t disagree but it’s very difficult to call for me as NZ were well beaten by us a few times and knew they had to improve a lot to have a hope, while we just had to keep doing what we’d been doing. There was a feeling we were in peak mode, rather than having areas that absolutely had to be better. I have no idea whether that’s a psychological advantage or disadvantage which is why it’s NZs performance that mattered more to me than Ireland’s. In hindsight it was predictable that they’d save their best performance in a few years for us in that match. We made a few uncharacteristic errors, they made none iirc.

    maybe those McCaw teams were the exception but it’s generally improving teams that win the wc, certainly both of SAs recent wins have been with teams that came in as so sos but just tightened up game on game to get it done.



  • Site Banned Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭Musicrules


    First of all, I'd like to say well done on actually making constructive posts, some posters here should learn from you.

    I do disagree with you however. 😀 It may have been New Zealand's best performance in a few years but I think the key factor was that it was our worst performance in a few years. We made it easy for them. We played nowhere near our level. We were risk adverse. Taking a safe pass instead of trying to make yards. Not offloading or throwing it wide when opportunities arose, instead keeping it tight.

    This is not the way we have played. It's not what made us the best team in the World. He doesn't like it but Neil3030's stats do back up the fact that we played a different game. I can't believe that was under coaching instruction, that wouldn't make sense. It was the occasion in my view. The pressure got to a number of players. Most notably Sexton.

    And the truth is that this wasn't a very good New Zealand team. They were very average, especially by their standards. They did make errors against us but we didn't punish them often. It also wasn't a great South Africa team, they didn't have to do much to win the World cup. It was there for the taking, that's why it hurts so bad. The players know this deep down. An awful England team nearly made the final for jaysus sake.

    When you look back, South Africa showed the bottle when it was on the line, unfortunately, our players did not. We've talked about having one of their coaches involved with Leinster, we need someone like him involved with the national team for when the next World cup quarter final comes round.



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 36,368 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    He alternates between having a go at the Irish rugby team, the Irish soccer team and Irish athletes. Must be off-season in the other sports.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,122 ✭✭✭Shehal


    And in reality the bookies had it as a 2 point game. Just out of curiosity, does that mean France are also chokers?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,388 ✭✭✭clsmooth


    Jaysus is he still at it?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,940 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    Best uncapped XXIII at the moment?

    1. Michael Milne
    2. Lee Barron
    3. Oliver Jager
    4. Joe Joyce
    5. Thomas Ahern
    6. David McCann
    7. John Hodnett
    8. James Culhane
    9. Nathan Doak
    10. Sam Prendergast
    11. Robert Russell
    12. Jamie Osborne
    13. Antoine Frisch
    14. Tommy O'Brien
    15. Stewart Moore
    16. Diarmuid Barron
    17. Denis Buckley
    18. Jack Aungier
    19. Edwin Edogbo
    20. Scott Penny
    21. Cormac Foley
    22. Jake Flannery
    23. Cathal Forde




  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 44,832 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Gonna get it in early, but for all the tis and tisnts on this forum, youre all a good bunch. Always enjoy the chat and debates, and as Irish rugby fans, to a majority, we're in a good place

    Happy new year. May 2024 be prosperous and healthy for all.

    To each and everyone, we all have struggles, for some more then most, just know no one is alone once we have this place to say whatever we feel


    Happy new year everyone. Whether your white, green, red or blue...... we're Irish and proud



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,224 ✭✭✭✭phog




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