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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Site Banned Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭Musicrules


    Ireland had a great past few years, some great victories and a grand slam. Amazing but we all said the real test was the World Cup. We entered it as the best team in the world and we failed at the quarter final stage, again. It wasn't just losing the quarter final that was the issue, it was losing it because the pressure got to the players. Unfortunately, this has been brushed over and lessons can't be learned that way. This means that we'll likely face the same issues at the next World Cup.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,534 ✭✭✭clsmooth


    Do you genuinely believe the lessons have just been brushed over by the players and coaching team? Where is the evidence for that? What is said in the media and what is said in camp are two very different things.

    You can be sure the coaches will have studied what went wrong and look to rectify that. The line out for one was a relative disaster for us all tournament and led to one of their tries in the first half after we lost an attacking line out around halfway and again in the second half where we got cut open defensively on first phase ball. They’re the margins at the top level.



  • Site Banned Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭Musicrules


    Where's your evidence that the players and management have faced up to the issue of the occasion getting to them? You are saying they are all lying to the media and the public but think they're being honest with themselves in camp?

    We played well below our best against New Zealand, we didn't play with freedom, some of the players clearly buckled under the pressure. That's why we lost.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,534 ✭✭✭clsmooth


    Did South Africa buckle to the pressure against us in the group stages? Did NZ buckle to the pressure in the final? Does every team who loses a game buckle to the pressure?

    The fact that they are a squad of players who have improved significantly as a team since they came together under Farrell and his coaching team in 2019 indicates to me that they are able to analyse weaknesses in their gameplan and performances, and improve them over time. One narrow defeat doesn’t change that for me.

    I’m sure they’re a lot harder on themselves than we are as they wouldn’t be at that level of professions sports if they weren’t. And yes, I don’t think professional sports people are completely honest with the media.

    What is your evidence that this group of players and management haven’t learned any lessons from the tournament?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,291 ✭✭✭TRC10


    Do you genuinely believe the lessons have just been brushed over by the players and coaching team? Where is the evidence for that? What is said in the media and what is said in camp are two very different things.

    "We lost but we won"



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  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,284 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    I love this Highlander mentality that "there can be only one"


    Every four years there's a competition to decide which team will not be labelled a failure for the following four years.

    South Africa are the only "not failure" team to exist in rugby for the last 8 years, everyone else is a failure.


    What a horrible way to watch any sport



  • Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭ Everleigh Freezing Oasis


    It's the way someone who hates rugby and the teams they ostensibly support would watch it alright.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,291 ✭✭✭TRC10


    Oh my god not this absolute nonsense again.

    Literally nobody has ever said that every team who does not win the World Cup is a failure. But sure keep making this stupid strawman argument instead of actually facing facts.



  • Site Banned Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭Musicrules


    Where's your evidence that they have faced up to the issues of buckling under pressure? Calling them liars doesn't paint them in a good light.

    Not every team who loses buckle under pressure but we clearly did, stop deflecting. We played really tight, not with the freedom that made us the best team in the world. We made basic errors, Sexton missed an easy kick and looked frozen under the pressure towards the end. We need to stop lying to ourselves and face up to the reality of it.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,783 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Cool. Any comments from anyone actually still in the irish squad?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,291 ✭✭✭TRC10




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,534 ✭✭✭clsmooth


    I didn’t call them liars. I said every sports person isn’t completely honest with the media. That’s pretty universal throughout sports. And life actually. It’s like telling your parents you’re grand when you’re stressed with work issues. Does that make me a liar?

    I didn’t deflect anything. I said that I thought our lineout issues were a key failing all through the World Cup and cost us two scores and the game against NZ. It was also poor in every other game aside from Scotland who didn’t compete against us. Is that pressure (also evident against Romania and Tonga and the warm ups) or a system failure which we didn’t rectify?

    Sexton missed a kick he should have got. Not every kick missed is a pressure issue. We played ‘tight’ but put together 37 phases at the end which got us 60 metres up the pitch. Do NZ deserve any credit in stiffing our attacking game?

    ‘We need to stop lying to ourselves and face up to the reality of it’ : are you referring to us on boards or the squad and management team itself?



  • Site Banned Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭Musicrules


    Try to paint it anyway you like, not telling the truth means they are lying. Why do you think they are comfortable lying to supporters but somehow will be honest with themselves? Why would they do that?

    You did deflect, what other teams did or how pressure affected them or not is completely irrelevant to our performance in the quarter final. Previously in this thread, someone put together some stats that showed we played in a different way than we have in the previous 2 years. We didn't play with freedom. Sexton was a mess by the time he took that kick, his legs were gone. This wasn't down to his age. This is what pressure does to some players, he was barely running for the last 10 minutes.

    If you want to pretend that the poor performance wasn't down to the occasion getting to the players, then fair enough, work ahead. That's what has been happening every 4 years, we keep coding ourselves and then we're back to square one 4 years later. What's that they call repeating the same mistakes over and over again and expecting different results?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,534 ✭✭✭clsmooth


    38 year old Sexton barely running at the end of a game where the ball was in play for 42 minutes due to pressure and not age/fatigue in a tournament where the average ball in play time was 34.18 is an interesting take.

    Safe to say we are not going to agree on this topic. I was disappointed like everyone here that we couldn’t bring the trophy home but our feelings pale in comparison to the coaches and players who spent years building up to the tournament. I have no doubt they will assess what didn’t go their way and try to rectify it going on as they have over the last 4 years when things haven’t gone our way.

    Also take any media soundbites from sports players with a pinch of salt. There is nothing to gain for them by going into any deep detail, only controversy and further questions.

    The future is bright for Irish rugby.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,206 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    post Match interviews were the pro says the score line doesn’t reflect how tough the dragons made it after thumping them by 40 should now be believed?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,594 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    It wasn't a poor performance in the way you're trying to portray it as. Both teams made errors. Aki's try was atrocious defending on NZ's part, as Jordan's try was for us. If Kelleher grounds the ball, we probably win the game. It was one of the hardest fought games in the history of the tournament. NZ were also absolutely shattered at the end.



  • Site Banned Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭Musicrules


    All I see there are excuses and wishy washy nonsense. Sexton bottled it, that's hard to accept given his career and this was how it ended but that's what happened. He wasn't the only one. If everyone's honest, they'll admit that the occasion got to the players. Plenty of experts have said it. But like I noted, some are more comfortable with ignoring the reality and brushing it under the carpet. We'll be in the same position in 2027 if the management and players don't address the issue and find solutions.



  • Site Banned Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭Musicrules


    We made basic errors, easy kicks but most of all we played with fear. That's not what we were doing for the past 2 years. I'm not sure if it was this thread but someone had a look at our stats and it showed we played a different game than what we had been doing.

    Also, you're ignoring the fact that this was the worst New Zealand team to enter a World Cup. They were there for the taking. It was a weak tournament overall, this was our chance. As Rob Kearney said, if we played close to our best we would have beaten them but we were nowhere near that. And that was down to the occasion.



  • Site Banned Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭Musicrules


    Or just choose to disbelieve players if it doesn't suit your viewpoint.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,819 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    I think those past issues won't be a factor simply because, the players coming into the environment have won u20 grand slams and reached a u20 world cup final. Overall, we're in a good place. Consider where we were when Farrell came in!

    This past world cup showed me that depth wise were still a little short. It was always going to be hard to lean on a 37 year old out half. This cycle, we have players coming up that win and win consistently.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 570 ✭✭✭munsterfan2


    Cant believe we are still talking about the WC, yes Sexton was too old, but what was the alternative - it was a year (or 2) too early for Crowley, both the Byrnes have been tried, Frawley kept getting injured, cant hold the 10 jersey in Leinster, Carberry never recovered his form from injury in 2019. Billy Burns not good enough. The alternatives were tried, we just ran out of time



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,594 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Absolute bollox, we didn't play with fear. The single biggest factor imo, besides Kelleher's error, was JGP having a poor game. The opening sequence saw us in their 5m line twice before the Aki try, and both times JGP took a poor action that led to a turnover. He took poor choices in the second half too, trying to go wide too soon etc.



  • Site Banned Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭Musicrules


    Here's the post that shows it's not bollox. We played with fear. The occasion made us play differently. It could have been because he knew every game could be his last but Sexton bottled it. No one can argue that this was a good New Zealand team, they were very average. We were good enough to beat them comfortably but we underperformed badly under pressure.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,206 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    so what is it? Are they always telling the truth so? Are you just choosing that which suits your viewpoint? Professional sportspeople do media training and rarely say much of actual interest. It’s all a nonsense. We don’t really ever get to hear or see what’s really said or done behind closed doors because in actual fact it’s none of our business. They throw a few crumbs to keep the journos happy. Anyone not in those camps who thinks they know what way the players feel based on a couple of tweets is just kidding themselves.



  • Site Banned Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭Musicrules


    We are talking about Johnny Sexton's comments, they weren't directly after the defeat to New Zealand, they were a few weeks later. He said:

    "Our main motivation and objective was to inspire the nation. I think we achieved that. We lost, but we won."

    Are you saying that he was lying in his statement?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,362 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Get over it lads.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,206 ✭✭✭✭salmocab




  • Site Banned Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭Musicrules




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    I'm feeling Alfred Nobel levels of remorse right now.



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  • Site Banned Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭Musicrules


    The stats you complied back up the suggestion that we played tight and with no freedom. Apart from that, we're mostly going on what we saw with our own eyes. To me, it looked obvious that we played with fear. Others thought differently but with nothing to back that up. Your stats provide some context.



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