Sinn Fein and how do they form a government dilemma

Ah the jam on both sides of the bread argument

I’d argue every single party currently in the Dail is the exact same. Half a dozen capable and the rest just drones.

FF and FG in their respective times built the economy from nothing to what we enjoy today.

Let's use Greece to compare, because their political and economic pathway, as delivered by Syriza, was heavily promoted by SF in the last decade or more. In 1992 Ireland's economy was total €55 billion. Greece was almost double at €116 billion

By 2008 pre the International Financial Crisis (which melted the Global economy not just in Ireland- there was about 4.2 trillion wiped off the world GDP) Ireland stood at 270 billion and Greece was at 350. Ireland's rate of growth in the intervening time was closing the GDP gap but Greece remained a significantly larger economy

From 2008-2012 Ireland lost 50 billion in GDP terms and Greece lost €120 billion

Since 2012 Ireland has gained 304 billion in GDP while Greece has stagnated and lost another 22 billion in total GDP.

It would be fair to conclude that while Ireland did suffer a major setback during 2008 to 2011 it has recovered better than Greece. That has been delivered by FG and FF policies- when SF, Labour and the rest cried about the imposition of necessary short term measures for longer term stability, the grown-ups went ahead and sorted the situation for the benefit of the state but the cost of their popularity. True service.

Ireland's economy was less than 0.2% of the world's GDP in 1992 and now its nearly 0.6%. FF didn't crash the economy, they and FG built everything you take for granted.

As for Greece, remember when the Syriza Finance Minister Euclid Tsakaltos got a standing ovation at the SF Ard Fheis in 2015? SF wanted us all to follow the radical Greek policy model and fu*k the EU. How did all that work out? Are Syriza due a return visit in 2024?

Now, do we want to talk about Venezuala's Maduro, that other international hero of SF? 7.3 million people had to flee that particular economic and social catastrophe.

FF have had their moments, but the facts say they've done ok.

NO.... on one side of the bread you have you saying FF wrecked the Economy ignoring SF's complicity

On the other you have the pretence any opposition party had a solution at the time or didn't promote things that would have made it a hell of a lot worse

Jam on both sides of your bread and typically heaps of straw in your strawman

The economy has grown by 250 billion net since 2007, effectively doubling in size. The 2008-2010 crisis is incorporated into that total figure and cost 50 billion. The economic gains have been 5 times larger than the scale of the losses in 2008-2010. Those are the facts.

If you claim that the losses in 2008-2010 crisis were like being 'driven off a cliff', then which cliche would you use to describe the subsequent recovery that has been 5-6 times larger? Scaling Everest?

Do SF want to go that route now? I wouldn't think so.

Parties evolve. I don't believe FF would make the same mistake again and be cheerled by FG...but anything is possible. The fact remains though, SF talked about stuff, FF actually did stuff that wrecked us.

Quite clear those are 'things' you want to gloss over too.

It'll have to be a world class " form of words" for it not too look like a major u turn if she suddenly regains confidence in the Commissioner...

It was called the Global Financial Collapse of 2008, bud. Ireland's economy dropped by 50bn, Sweden by 90bn, Spain by 300bn, Austria, Finland and Belgium by 30-40bn each. True Ireland was hit relatively hard, but the effects were proportionally greater in open economies at the time. The UK for instance took a 500bn hit.

It is simply false to present the situation as one that was unique to Ireland, or driven by the largesse of an out-of-control government. True the dependence on stamp duty was a significant mistake. Richard Bruton was a lone voice pointing this out in 2005 and 2006, however at that time every budget was met with calls from Sinn Fein for even more spending and erosion of the tax base. Go back and read the Dail debates from the time- if as you say the country was being driven over a cliff O'Caolain and SF wanted to put the foot on the accelerator.

The point however, is that Ireland's economy recovered better than most because FF and FG knuckled down and took nigh-on-impossible political decisions at their own electoral expense. Similar policies in other countries have led to adverse outcomes for those parties who did what was needed. Rory Stewart in his excellent lecture Populism- Aristotle and Hope characterizes this as being one of the main drivers of a growth in populism in previously centrist countries.

Contrast this with the alternative Syriza/SF ideas that were floated at the time, and still get a hearing. They led to very bad outcomes for people, far beyond the admitted difficulties seen here 10 years ago. The country is flying, despite the issues. Thank FF and FG.

The recovery that would have been even more costly if Sinn Feins calls for even further narrowing of the tax base prior to the crisis had been implemented. They are up to the same nonsense again now with the populist nonsense of scrapping USC and massively narrowing the tax bracket to a state similar to where we were in 2008 which would leave us once again wide open to impacts from an external crisis we have no control over.

FF are absolutely responsible in part but nobody could have stopped the impact of the global crisis on us so trying to suggest the sole responsibility of the crisis be laid at FFs feet is completely delusional and i'm someone who never voted for them prior and don't plan on ever doing so in future.

Looks like you blaming the government of the time ie FF for it there with the driving us off the cliff comment.

And it was pointed out SF were calling for things that would have made things far far worse if implemented. Like they are starting to do again now by calling for a narrowing of the tax base and leaving us more exposed to an external crisis.

And disagree or not you absolutely laid the entire blame for the financial crisis at FFs feet with that cliff comment.

We will never know how much worse it could have got.

We DO KNOW how bad it was.

You can go on about Global this that and the other but we also know that tge country was not in the hands of competent or responsible government. Fact.