Public Pay Talks - see mod warning post 4293

Ezeoul · 02-12-2023 05:03AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121444574#Comment_121444574

Bren, let me refresh your memory - it was you who weighed in on the timings of negotiations, when you made some big statement about negotiations not happening in September because "Ministers are too busy before the Budget" and "July /August being too early" because of possible changes to inflation.

I, amongst others, pointed out that negotiations on new deals always start before the current deal expires, but you don't seem to want to accept thisd.

So, to be pedantic, you're making a huge deal out of the negotiations last year being on 29th /30th August - so close to September, that it's literally ridiculous that you're arguing over it.

I'm also confident given your self-confessed limited knowledge of the Civil Service (and that you didn't seem to know that the Dáil is in recess from mid-July to mid-September each year) that you are not as familiar with ministerial functions and budget preparation as you think you are.

But, to get to the actual point, your bone of contention which led to all of the above seems to be "why would they start negotiations when the current deal hasn't even expired yet?"

Well, following your logic, the negotiations shouldn't be starting until January 2024 at the earliest.

Yet they have already started. Why?

The answer - because it is normal that negotiations on a new deal begin well in advance of a current deal expiring. Which is all anyone tried to tell you.

bren2001 · 02-12-2023 08:05AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121444607#Comment_121444607

Let's not rewrite history. I know when the dail does and does not sit. I said (or was implying) the relevant Ministers are busy preparing the budget in September to negotiate a new pay deal. The pay deal is a massive drain on their resources. That is obvious. Whether the Dail is sitting or not is irrelevant. You don't want to accept that.

The current pay deal HAS NOT EXPIRED. You won't accept that.

Negotiating a new deal before one is over is normal. 6 months before one is over in the middle of a strange inflationary period makes no sense from either side. You won't accept that.

You're argument that 'they negotiated it in September last year' is wrong. They didn't. It was concluded by then. That timeline is important because you know what the minister(s) was doing in September? Preparing the fuxking budget. Negotiating an extension to a pay deal because there was a review clause was triggered by the Unions meant the government had to renegotiate. The situation this year and last year were different. You won't accept that.

You're casually avoiding that a review clause was activated last year. That makes this year andast year very different. You won't accept that. I'm assuming you didn't know or forgot it was because of a review clause.

The pay deal was set to expire December 2022. There were no negotiations for a new deal at the point you indicated. You won't accept that.

The Unions are the experts. It's not bad planning or bad work, there are reasons it's happening now. You won't accept that.

I have limited knowledge of how grades in the civil service work. I'm willing to admit what i do and don't know. I like how you started by not giving your experience... You work in the civil service. You have no knowledge of the other side. I am assuming you've never worked in a union, i have. You have never worked for a TD or Minister, i have (only in the summers and a long long time ago when I was young). You have absolutely no idea what these people do. You have no idea how the talks work. You understand the pay talks effect people outside the Civil Service?

You're fixated on belittling other posters because you know more and everyone else is wrong and inexperienced. It's arrogance, not intelligence or experience. Point out where I'm factually wrong. Argue the points. Otherwise it's just opinion and other people can have a different opinion to you. This isn't a forum for those that agree with Ezeols opinion only.

I've never said when I think the negotiations should have started. You're taking a quote out of context there but for clarification, negotiating a new deal 6 months before the current one expires at a time when inflation is rampant, and right before the budget when the relevant department is very busy preparing for the budget, is bonkers. It's not going to happen. It makes no sense for either side to do that. You won't accept that.

Let's get to the point, bashing unions because they didn't start 6 months early is bizarre. They have started a month before the end of the deal. They might have a new deal agreed before the current one expires. You won't accept that.

I've never once in this thread seen you accept someone else's view. If you can provide your logic and rationale as to why, I'm happy to change my opinion. You don't debate like that. It's your opinion and everyone else is wrong.

Ezeoul · 02-12-2023 10:04AM

Honestly, you're just boring me now.

You're now reduced to inventing arguments where there were none, until you weighed in and embarrassed yourself.

And then dragging them out ad nausem.

No one was arguing about whether the current deal had expired or not or was putting a specific number on how many months before it does should negotiations start - only that they could have started sooner. The rest was all YOU.

Spare me the personal insults also. I've been on this thread since it started, I don't seem to remember you being here last time around and everything I predicted last year has been proven correct so far. You need to accept that it's not always an opinion, or a debate, some thing are just fact, and I work off facts.

As I said to you before, you should stick to what you know - which you said is the education sector and not the Civil Service.

Also a deal isn't done until it's balloted on and accepted by the members and if you think they can do all that in one month from negotiation to ballot box then you're deluded.

You have a nice day now. I'm going christmas shopping. 🎅🎄

combat14 · 02-12-2023 10:52AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121444569#Comment_121444569

anywhere that is designated a rent pressure zone at this stage should be included in RPZ Salary..

the problem in this country is not pay .. its inflated property prices/ rents, inflation and taxes

but pay will have to rise now to keep up

bren2001 · 02-12-2023 11:37AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121444792#Comment_121444792

I didn't realise my job was to entertain you.

And that's what you do every time. "I'm too good for this" and walk away. Move goalposts ad naseum.

Do the government do anything during the balloting? No. Talks concluded on August 31st. Negotiations are done. Nobody is arguing with that....except you. You won't even accept that one. Incredible.

Irrelevant if i was here last time or not.

I didn't realise the Grinch celebrated Christmas. Enjoy your shopping. Must be hard handing over the cash with the injustices that you see everyday.

AyeGer · 02-12-2023 08:30PM

Talks going on now, I think they want them to be short. Hopefully then hammer out a deal asap.

BhoyRayzor · 04-12-2023 12:36AM

Can the union come back with a deal and recommend it be rejected? As in this is the best that is being offered but we don't think it is good enough but it has to be put to a vote anyway. Or if it's not deemed good enough they just recommend industrial action as the response?

lbunnae · 04-12-2023 11:40AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121451124#Comment_121451124

Yeah they give their opinion on the deal to their members.

CZ 453 · 04-12-2023 05:49PM

Did these talks run through the weekend? Any leaks yet?

spark_tank · 04-12-2023 10:37PM

Anyone with access to the BP willing to summarise this article?

https://www.businesspost.ie/analysis-opinion/ian-guider-why-the-unions-will-win-in-the-public-sector-pay-talks/

Indestructable · 04-12-2023 10:55PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121455216#Comment_121455216

TBH it's a bit of a crap article. The only upper hand the unions have is the timing coming into an election cycle (according to the article), which may mean a sweet short term deal.

The article then goes on to describe why the Government shouldn't go too far-slowing inflation, economic uncertainty and lower corporation tax take.

It's a short piece of fluff really.

Ezeoul · 04-12-2023 10:59PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121455216#Comment_121455216

Despite the headline, its basically its making all the usual arguments for why civil and public servants should be stiffed again.

Indestructable · 04-12-2023 11:00PM

Thinking more on it, I think the author has it wrong. The longer the delay, the more the Government can point to the deteriorating economic climate as well as reducing inflation and say sorry, the money isn't there or is gone and you don't need it anyway.

In reality, it's in both sides interest to get it done quickly.

spark_tank · 04-12-2023 11:04PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121455297#Comment_121455297

Having now viewed it I would share your view.

Nigel Fairservice · 04-12-2023 11:06PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121455216#Comment_121455216

Link below to full article.

https://archive.ph/kyvQy

combat14 · 05-12-2023 03:55PM

Tolls charges set to rise again e.g 9.52% on national toll roads

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/toll-charge-increases-on-m50-national-roads-and-dublin-tunnel-to-kick-in-from-new-years-day/a1388728425.html

its like death by a thousand cuts, hope the unions are negotiating hard

05-12-2023 04:28PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121457973#Comment_121457973

Employees are service providers. Why can other service providers expect AND GET inflation matching rises, from government, but employees constantly expected to take far far less?

MrRigsby · 05-12-2023 05:11PM

Pay is always an issue. The whole country is practically an RPZ with costs nothing like somewhere like Dublin . I’d stick to the major cities. In UK it’s called London Weighting and is worth between 5 and 7 grand per annum . Definitely not to be sneezed at and very hard for the government to argue against

Pogue eile · 05-12-2023 05:35PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121458291#Comment_121458291

A proper decentralisation plan was/is surely the more logical answer. UK is London centric because that's exactly the way the Tories and their cronies want it, no need to copy a failed model. New blended working and the real possibility of a 4 day working week make it even easier to implement.

lbunnae · 05-12-2023 05:40PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121458378#Comment_121458378

Ireland will always be Dublin centric. Governmemt wont be able to change that to any great extent.

Pogue eile · 05-12-2023 05:42PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121458402#Comment_121458402

It would be a massive task and the lack of adequate infrastructure etc. a problem but there is a big difference between changing it and actively encouraging it to grow, which is what the creation on a 'Dublin' Allowance would do.