Advertisement
Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/.
https://www.boards.ie/group/1878-subscribers-forum

Private Group for paid up members of Boards.ie. Join the club.
Hi all, please see this major site announcement: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058427594/boards-ie-2026

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

19509519539559561851

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,002 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    Smith didn't seem to like him at 13 for whatever reason, picking him at 12 a few times instead. Personally, I think he'd have been a way better pick than Earls at 13 in the 2015 QF. 12. Fitzgerald, 13. Henshaw would have been better than what he went with too, for me. And Jackson ahead of Madigan. Some of the selections for that game are very questionable.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,918 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    If you’re referring to the fraud case I really don’t think that is hurting him. The case has been over for a year, he pled guilty so if Munster wanted him gone they could have. He was injured most of last year and is struggling to get any look in at a very competitive position.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    I went back and had a quick look at some attacking stats, ranging from the 2nd test in New Zealand in the 2022 Summer tour, up until and including the QF loss to New Zealand last month. Respectfully, I am not including games against Italy or lower-ranked opposition. I am only looking at games Sexton started.


    New Zealand 12 - Ireland 23: Sexton had 27 passes and 2 runs for 30 metres gained.

    New Zealand 22 - Ireland 32: Sexton had 12 passes and 1 run for 16 metres gained.

    Ireland 19 - South Africa 16: Sexton had 16 passes and 2 runs for 4 metres gained.

    Wales 10 - Ireland 34: Sexton had 18 passes and 8 runs for 23 metres gained.

    Ireland 32 - France 10: Sexton had 22 passes and 5 runs for 68 metres gained.

    Scotland 7 - Ireland 22: Sexton had 27 passes and 5 runs for 20 metres gained.

    Ireland 29 - England 16: Sexton had 27 passes and 9 runs for 47 metres gained.

    South Africa 8 - Ireland 13: Sexton had 16 passes and 6 runs for 9 metres gained.


    Sexton's "pass:run" ratio fell between 3:1 at its most run-heavy (v England in the 6N), and 14:1 at its most pass heavy (first win in NZ). I like this statistic because it normalizes for the amount of times we were actually in possession and not looking to kick.

    His metres-gained per carry, for me, is the key. Even into his late thirties, and controlling for outliers, he was good for 4-5m on a carry, which is outstanding. No out-half will come close to this running threat at that age. Especially in tests at that level, and making that many carries per game (robust average of ~4 carries per game).

    Defenses absolutely had to take his running threat seriously, and with those runs coming at a robust-average ratio 5:1 across those games, it was a threat that required constant focus by defenses.

    Now let's look at the data from the QF loss:


    Ireland 24 - New Zealand 28: Sexton had 73 passes and 1 run for 6 metres gained.


    Even if you adjust down the 73 passes (at least 37 of them would have occurred in that final drive), this makes 36 passes to 1 run, or a ratio of 36:1. This is two-and-a-half times more than his most pass-heavy game since Summer 2022, and 7 times more than his robust average over that same period. And some might argue that you should not adjust the 73 passes...

    But I honestly think you can discount activity in the final drive, and still conclude that Sexton's running threat was practically null for the entire game. We were a pass-heavy and predictable attack. And this policy deviated drastically from our effective performances against top tier opposition in the 18 months previous. Whether it was burn-out, injury, nerves, fatigue, who knows. You will have a hard time convincing me that it was a deliberate tactical decision that they thought would win the game.

    Now, you can justly argue that we were nonetheless a Beauden Barrett miracle defensive effort away from reaching a semi-final. So I am not concluding that Sexton's overall performance lost us the game. On another day, we do get that try and probably close out the game. (And probably win the RWC....).

    But in the last 18 months, we offered a two-pronged attack and won most games by more than a score (i.e., clear of the influence of these Barrett-like freak moments).

    In the game where the data show that we drastically departed from this, we lost.

    Note 1: What I mean by "robust average" is taking the exponent of the average of the log transformed data. It controls for outliers, akin to a median, but it's more granular. @jacothelad, I'm sure, can confirm that this is the appropriate measure with sparse and skewed data).

    Note 2: Click the scores if you want to look at the underlying data and DYOR (finding matches on that ESPN site is a pain; you're welcome).

    Post edited by Neil3030 on


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,906 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Interesting data. I do think it reinforces that something was off about us the whole game. We just weren't the team we normally are - the question is why. I'm sure chasing the game for the whole thing was a large part of it, but its unfortunate to get away from your game when chasing it as it makes it seem like panic. If that was the case it just highlights how bad the first 20 were.



  • Site Banned Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭Musicrules


    Excellent research, well done and thanks. I'd argue that the stats from the New Zealand quarter final stem from nerves. It has been denied by many that it was the cause of our defeat but it was clear that we didn't play with freedom and we were tight. Your stats back this up. Sexton and others didn't play like they've played for the previous 2 years. The occasion got to them. People don't like this being referred to as choking or bottling it but whatever anyone wants to call it, it will always be a massive regret for Sexton and this squad. Hopefully lessons will be learned from it.



  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,906 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    People don't like this being referred to as choking or bottling 

    Well duh.

    They were affected by nerves is a perfectly reasonable thing to say, as is wondering how they can improve that going forward (e.g. bringing in coaching staff with a recent experience of winning these games). Saying they "bottled it" just makes you sound like an asshole who never really wanted them to win.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,868 ✭✭✭leakyboots


    Great research, does convince me further that Sexton was not at his best in that last quarter and shovelling on ball. Crowley should have been on, whether he would have made a difference you can argue the toss but I'd wager he'd have ran the ball more.

    I'd say that World Cup will haunt those players, we arrived in the best shape we'd been in, suffered few/no major serious injuries throughout and then didn't perform to anywhere near our best when it counted.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,576 ✭✭✭✭phog


    I think it may haunt Farrell too, he stuck with his conviction, it didn't work and now we all wonder, what if


    Btw, @Neil3030 great research



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 5,436 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    The school system is primary Pathway in some of the provinces but the provinces and irfu are putting in systems and set ups to help widen the player pool through smaller schools and the youths clubs. Be it the development centres and then clubs selects playing schools teams etc.

    I don't see a national academy working. Irfu had that initially but they decentralised it to provinces 20 years ago and I don't see it ganging any time soon.

    All academy players are already with ail clubs and play with them depending on if with irish 20s or already have stepped up to involvement with provonces senior sides



  • Site Banned Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭Musicrules


    Affected by nerves is just a different way of saying they bottled it. It's the same thing. People have gone out of their way to deny that the defeat was down to the occasion getting the better of them. This denial is counterproductive to learning from it. Research like that from Neil will force those in denial to accept what really happened.



  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,906 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    "They bottled it" or "they choked" is not the vocabulary of someone trying to learn from the experience.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    While on the general topic of "haunting" there's a point that has been lingering in my mind since the game. But I need to be very careful how I word this, as it can easily be taken the wrong way.

    Farrell has clearly built a strong emotional connection with the players. And no stronger than his connection with Sexton. Combined, it's a large component of our recent successes.

    However he also might have looked at the final ten or so minutes in that game and empathized a bit too much with Sexton.

    Suppose he had taken Sexton off, and we had gone on to lose regardless. I (and many others) would argue that it was the correct decision, regardless, given the state of affairs: losing anyway, and Crowley offered something different. It's worth a punt.

    However there is also the personal side of this decision. This was Ireland's captain, arguably our GOAT (behind Stephen Archer, at least), it was his last ever game, it was a RWC QF, we have never won one. It would surely have haunted Sexton for the rest of his life, wondering if, had he stayed on for those ten minutes, would have gotten us across the line.

    Now, if it were a ruthless, by-the-numbers coach like a Nienabar/Erasmus or the likes of a Bill Belichick (possibly even a Schmidt), Sexton is replaced. I have little doubt about this.

    But Farrell, the more emotionally intelligent coach, leaves him on.

    The bond he has built with players is worth an awful lot, and Irish people are, by and large, more tailored to respond to emotion and loyalty. But no system is perfect.

    It's all, ultimately, conjecture, bordering on complete and utter speculation, but if we're looking purely at action items going forward, perhaps it's worth looking at when the heart is ruling the head that little bit too much...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,437 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    Agree it points to a heart over head decision.

    Also felt the players saying after the match how gutted they were they couldn’t do it for Johnny was a completely misguided mindset, I think that would have warped their motivation, too much emphasis on one player is a bad idea, the goal to win a quarter final should have been the same prize for every single player, it’s bizarre to distract players with guilt that someone else is more important to do it for than themselves. Something very off there in the mental approach.



  • Site Banned Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭Musicrules


    Those phrases mean the same as the affected by nerves phrase you used. Some were trying to deny this happened. Including some high profile ex players but also many supporters. Learning to cope with the pressure and not fold in quarter finals is essential going forward. Unfortunately, we will probably never have as good a chance to win a World Cup as this year, we blew it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,673 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    JGP I feel was the critical element in how our system misfired. We had no difficulty getting into the NZ 22. In the opening 20, that folks have characterized as a disaster, we had two attacks on their line that we fluffed. His execution in this crucial area was really poor by his standards, and ended up squandering great positions.

    Post edited by AbusesToilets on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,437 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    The difficulty of the match resulted in mistakes, it was the same for both teams but Ireland were slightly worse, New Zealand got a couple of easy scores due to lapses in defence that were well below the standards set in recent years. Staying in the fight to the end showed they didn’t bottle it, they definitely weren’t anywhere near their best, but every close game will be littered with small moments that could’ve changed the result.

    I do wonder if they’d gone with a stronger back row would they have been better off, McCarthy and Henderson as locks, Beirne, O’Mahony, Doris or Beirne, Doris, Conan with O’Mahony off the bench might have been a better match for NZ. I thought Van der Flier had very little impact on the game, but would have to watch it again. Baird for some reason was left out, think he was worth a run.

    4 Henderson, 5 McCarthy,

    6 Beirne, 8 Conan, 7 Doris

    19 Baird, 20 O’Mahony.



  • Posts: 2,692 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The academies are already national in that all the contracts are direct irfu contracts and all the coaches are irfu contracts.

    I don’t like the idea of a national academy if that means players don’t train with senior players in the province.



  • Posts: 2,692 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I think scoreboard pressure knocked us off plan. Usually we kick alot more and we should have maintained confidence in that.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,906 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Yup, he was not great and he is in many ways more important to our game than even Sexton was.



  • Posts: 2,692 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I watched the game again and i really think that NZ identified that playing an even more pure version of our usual game plan could work against us. It kind of makes sense as their back 3 does have the capacity to win kicking battles against us which no other team has really done.

    Then, in the actual game they put us under scoreboard pressure and instead of us trusting the normal plan we tried to keep the ball way too much.

    I honestly think we are a clearly more talented team and that game was a bit of an aberration. But at the same time, they played so close to their peak and exploited every chance.



  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 36,495 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    We got a couple of easy scores due to lapses in defence ourselves. There's no way Aki, superhuman as he was throughout the world cup, should have run through five defenders to score.



  • Site Banned Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭Musicrules


    I think that's the thing, New Zealand just weren't very good. That's why it hurts so bad.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,819 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Excellent research Neil.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,437 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    Couple of easy scores? Which other score was easy? And Aki beat the defender with a good side step and a strong carry close to their line where their defence was scrambling to cover space.

    I wouldn’t really equate that with the system failure off the lineout that led to their try or for leaving acres of space on the wing for Savea to go over untouched.

    The feeling after the game was Ireland dominated most of the game and had to work much harder to get points but NZ got a few sucker punches without having to do much. The penalty against Murray was a soft penalty too, Keenan claimed a magnificent high ball and Jordie Barrett threw himself down to make a meal of barely any contact I thought.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,918 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    The Gibson Park try was exceptionally soft. Jordan made a terrible defensive read where he doesn't commit to JGP because he is worried about Lowe, despite Lowe being clearly covered by Barrett and falls off the tackle on a scrum half. If he makes that tackle JGB is isolated and Savea is steaming in for the penalty turnover.

    Those "sucker punches" aren't a fluke either, they were a direct consequence of NZ selecting superior athletes to Ireland, particularly in the backs. Ireland prioritised system players and cohesion over pace and as with most decisions at the top level you gain and lose based on that selection.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,017 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    You're painting it as black and white, when the reality is there's a whole spectrum. Nerves does automatically not mean bottled / choked.

     Some were trying to deny this happened. Including some high profile ex players

    At least you've rowed back from claiming ex-players were saying they "choked" when you couldn't find a single one that did.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,017 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Brilliant post, Neil.

    I think one large part of it was that Hansen didn't seem to be 100% following his injury either, and he has become such an important part of our attack that just hampered us even further.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,212 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    So if I’m reading this right we got some easy points due to lapses and NZ got easy points because Ireland choked?



  • Site Banned Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭Musicrules


    I didn't say ex players said they choked, I said they meant that using different words. Same with the affected by nerves phrase used on this thread, it means the same thing. Now we even have some stats to back it up. We didn't play the way we've been playing for the last 2 years. The occasion got the better of most of our players. Sexton missing a kick is an obvious example but him not orchestrating attacks as normal is a less obvious sign.

    So you can avoid calling it choking or deny it ever happened or whatever you want but the stats and the views of some ex players and pundits state that we had 'a sub-optimal sporting performance delivered under pressure' (definition of choking).



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,017 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    I didn't say ex players said they choked, I said they meant that using different words.

    So you know what pundits actually meant... despite them using entirely different words??

    Right....



Advertisement
Advertisement