Handwriting decipher thread must post link to full page

55Gem · 19-08-2023 4:07pm

Made an attempt at cleaning it up a bit, it's difficult to know what to take out and what to leave, he's so flamboyant with his loops and strokes.

I'm still none the wiser though.

Fraoch333 · 19-08-2023 6:07pm

It's really hard to figure out. I can't see anything similar on other entries. The curls in the first letter look a little like the "D" in December. I'd guess Dis are the first three letters. I suppose it might be Latin, but I don't know what would be written in there.

chooseusername · 19-08-2023 6:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120999597#Comment_120999597

It looks like there could be a letter T in there. The two witnesses for the bride, could the first name Matre??? ... be stand-in for Maria Pattison and that word something like proxy?

Hermy · 19-08-2023 6:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121000893#Comment_121000893

Thanks all.

Yes, I’m seeing ‘dis’ as well.

Could it be dispensation for something - perhaps a second marriage?

spurious · 19-08-2023 7:47pm

My initial thought was 'Disp' but usually they give some indication of what the dispensation was, ans there do not seem to be other instances of 'Disp' on other pages, which would be quite unusual.

55Gem · 19-08-2023 8:12pm

I don’t think it’s a D

To me it looks more like the first letter on number 236 on this page https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633743#page/79/mode/1up

but I don’t know what the name is, something Dowling. Patrick maybe, don’t know how to spell in Latin.

Hermy · 20-08-2023 9:02am

Thanks again everyone for having a look at this - like yourselves I'm stumped.

I suspect Ignatius may have been previously married and was hoping the word might support this but it shall remain a mystery for now.

pinkypinky · 13-09-2023 8:43pm

Could I get an opinion on the third bride's name here please? First name Harriet. Surname indexed as O'Connor - but there's another word between those two, repeated on her father's section.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1896/10491/5820459.pdf

gipi · 13-09-2023 8:51pm

Have a look at this record, Harriet seems to have been widowed and married again in 1904.

Fathers surname looks like Maraney?

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1904/10208/5715265.pdf

Fraoch333 · 13-09-2023 9:06pm

It looked like Maranly to me, but I had a look on Ancestry where the church record is linked - she's listed as Maroney. I'll try to find the entry on NLI and link it.

pinkypinky · 13-09-2023 9:12pm

I got it - thanks for the reminder that the Pro-Cathedral goes well past the cut-off on the NLI.

Looks like Maroney there too.

Weirdly, Boards won't let me put in the NLI link

Fraoch333 · 13-09-2023 9:19pm

Hope this links works! The entry is on page 161 of the Register https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633795#page/192/mode/1up

Edited - I was so slow scrolling on my phone, I didn't see that you had already found it : )

pinkypinky · 13-09-2023 9:47pm

Thanks.

unfortunately · 25-09-2023 7:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994630#Comment_120994630

Could it be "Patre" thus making the phrase "patre et matre" or "father and mother" in Latin? the following word "sponso" looks to be Latin for "I betroth" so the parents are betrothing their daughter for marriage

Hermy · 26-09-2023 8:25am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121156337#Comment_121156337

That's a great spot @unfortunately.

And the more I look at it the more I'm seeing it.

But I haven't seen an entry like that befoe - I wonder why it's written thus?

unfortunately · 27-09-2023 1:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121157779#Comment_121157779

Google translates "Patre et Matre sponso/a" as "Father and Mother of the bridegroom/bride" I'm not sure if it is sponso or sponsa because the last letter doesn't look like other examples of "o" and "a" at the end of words like in Josepho or Maria. It may be "sponsos" which means "spouses" according to Google.

In context, it looks like its saying that Joseph Moore is the father of Ignatius and Maria Pattison is the mother of Emily. It may be just giving additional info as to who the witnesses were. Pure speculation; but if one or both of the couple were underage maybe they would have needed parents permission to marry?

Hermy · 27-09-2023 2:38pm

I know that Emily was born in about 1806 to William Pattison and Mary O'Reilly, and that William was most likely dead at the time of her marriage.

I also know that following Ignatius' death in 1837 Emily married Joseph Moore who may be a brother/cousin/ nephew of Ignatius.

What I don't know is the identity of Ignatius' father so this could be a significant turn-up for the books!

Funnily enough I had previously come up with a vague connection to a Spencer family so felt I had no reason to doubt the transcription from Irish Genealogy.

Comsewogue · 10-10-2023 5:26pm

Hi all, trying to transcribe a poor quality newspaper scan.

It's the death notice of one James Flavelle in the Irish Daily Independent from 25 October 1895 (via the Irish Newspaper Archive):

James Flavelle - Death Notice - Irish Daily Independent - 25 Oct 1895.png

In particular, I'm trying to figure out what he was a member of for many years. It looks like "the Andrean Contra-[?] of the Blessed Sacrament and Sacred Heart".

Also does this group sound familiar to anyone? I'd be interested to know what it was.

EDIT: Edited to include source and date.

Hermy · 10-10-2023 5:46pm

The word after Andrean might be Confraternity.

MOD NOTE: Welcome to Boards @Comsewogue.

Please bear in mind that where possible you must provide a source for the image you're trying to transcribe.

A link to the Irish Newspaper Archive (for those with a subscription) and the publication date (25th Oct 1895) will greatly help other posters to help you.

Catsmeow · 10-10-2023 9:46pm

Hi Comsewogue

My transcription:

Flavelle - October 23, 1895, at his residence, 2 Lime St, at an advanced age, James Flavelle, for many years a member of the Andrean Confraternity of the Blessed Sacrament, and Sacred Heart. Queen of the Most Holy Rosary Pray for him. R.I.P. Funeral will leave above residence for Glasnevin, at 10 o'clock on Sunday [I think the final word is morning].

Comsewogue · 11-10-2023 9:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121219586#Comment_121219586

Hi @Hermy - thanks for the welcome. I've edited the post to include date and source (Boards is not yet letting me include links).

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121220889#Comment_121220889

I think that's perfect, thanks for your help @Catsmeow!

I did some further research as confraternities are not something I had come across before. They are voluntary associations of laypeople aimed at promoting Christian charity and piety, with members committing to live by specific rules or by-laws but not religious vows. The Andrean Confraternity was attached to St. Andrew's Parish in Westland Row. It seems that in Ireland they had mostlyb declined by the 1950s and disappeared by the 60s/70s.

Hermy · 11-10-2023 10:03am

You're right of course Comsewogue, new posters can't post links - apologies for that.

And thanks for editing your post.

Catsmeow · 11-10-2023 3:21pm

You're welcome, Comsewogue, glad to be of help. I've learned something about confraternities too.

Kind regards

Catsmeow

p15574 · 29-10-2023 6:34pm

Would anyone have any idea where the mother of Bridget, Ellen Woods, was from in this birth cert? I've deciphered that the birth was in Garroose, Bruree in Limerick. Looks something like "Dorriesliopermoack"

chooseusername · 29-10-2023 7:54pm

Looks like “domestic servant” to me , maybe she was not married?

Hermy · 29-10-2023 8:16pm

As ‘formerly’ has been crossed out and no father is mentioned I’d agree that the mother isn’t married.

Larkenn · 30-10-2023 5:37am

Transcription:

Ignatius Moore et Emilia Patison SS Josepho Moore Patre et Matre Sponsor, Maria Patison

Translated as:

Ignatius Moore and Emilia Patison (Sponsors) Josepho Moore (husband) and wife sponsor, Maria Patison

The 2 people listed after the groom and bride are sponsors. Most likely his brother and her sister. Priests did not have great latin. I have seen the words Patre and Matre used in church records to mean husband and wife. There are no parents listed which wasn't unusual for that time.

Hermy · 30-10-2023 9:26am

Thanks Larkenn.

This was the only church record I had come across with that Patre et Matre wording in it.

A search of the parish records at Irish Genealogy throws up two other marriages with the same wording and both by the same priest - William Stafford in Rathmines - one on 31 Jul 1831 and another on 4 Jun 1834.

So it may be a quirk of this particular priest but not something he employs very often which begs the question why.

p15574 · 30-10-2023 3:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121299313#Comment_121299313

Definitely looks unmarried, domestic servant makes sense, thanks. As it turns out it's the wrong person so doesn't matter in the end!

Deja Boo · 30-10-2023 8:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121301732#Comment_121301732

That's good because "Dorriesliopermoack" sounds like a much more exciting career :D

Comsewogue · 01-11-2023 10:23am

Hi all, could anyone take a look at Bridget Fitzpatrick (sorry, I still can't post links).

I'm having trouble figuring out both her place of death (registration district is Dublin South) and the residence of the informant, her nephew John.

Much appreciated!

stopthevoting · 01-11-2023 10:59am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121309189#Comment_121309189

LINK: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1931/04899/4327957.pdf

stopthevoting · 01-11-2023 11:05am

For her nephew, I think its "Caffreys Lane" or "Gaffneys Lane". (In front of that is "3 yrs" which is part of the previous column)

stopthevoting · 01-11-2023 11:27am

Or maybe it might be "Place" not "Lane"?

Hermy · 01-11-2023 12:31pm

According to her death notice in the Evening Herald of May 25th 1931 she died at her niece's residence 3 Ewington Lane, James's Street, and was a sister of the late John Fitzpatrick of 37 James's Street.

Comsewogue · 01-11-2023 3:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121309777#Comment_121309777

That's definitely her then, thanks so much. I know her brother John of 37 James's Street (my 3rd great-grandfather) well. Now to find which of the many nieces she was with!

Two interesting things:

Her brother John was still getting a mention 25 years after his death in 1906. He was an early member of the IRB and was apparently well known/regarded, so perhaps it continued to be a thing even after that much time had passed.
Her age recorded at death was 62, but I am certain she was 85. I've found no younger Bridget and besides, her parents would have been nearly 60. I know there's often discrepancies in reporting age, but it seems like a huge one. Perhaps she was misreporting her own age if she was continuing to work as a servant in her old age?

Hermy · 01-11-2023 5:18pm

Worth noting the burial record for her at Glasnevin also records her age at death as 62.

Hermy · 07-11-2023 9:06am

On this 1911 Irish census return I wonder can any of you make out the number of years married and children born and living for Anne Healy?

BowWow · 07-11-2023 9:39am

Very Hard,

I'd say 50 years married, 4 or 14 children born, no idea on living number.

55Gem · 07-11-2023 9:48am

I’d go with 50, 4 and 2

55Gem · 07-11-2023 10:00am

Tried to darken it a bit

Hermy · 07-11-2023 10:25am

Thanks folks.

50, 4 & 2 is what I was seeing and it fits too so I'll go with that.

Unfortunately there's a gap in the parish records around the years she got married and the birth of her first child so I don't have that to cross reference with.

mindhorn · 11-11-2023 9:37am

Can't send the links to these records considering the site is down at the moment but have these saved locally. Few questions:

Catherine's surname flucuates between Bartnett and Barnett. Presume this was common enough?
Does anyone know where Headford is in Kanturk?
Can anyone make out the placename in the 1884 record (district is Fermoy)?
Can anyone make out the placename in the 1886/1888 record (Garagh?!)?

Marriage cert:

Hermy · 11-11-2023 10:20am

I wouldn't be overly concerned about the Bartnett/ Barnett variation.

The place name in the 1884 record looks like Ballynafauna.

There are a number of Gearagh's in Cork but one just south of Fermoy, closer to Watergrasshill, might be the one.

I'm stuck on Headford!

55Gem · 11-11-2023 1:31pm

Banteer is also on the Headford record and he’s a railway labourer.

I tried looking along the railway line near Banteer but couldn’t see Headford but in 1921 there is a notice in the newspapers from the Great Southern and Western Railway about the reopening of the line Banteer to Farranfore and Headford junction to Kenmare.

no good Headford Junction is just outside Headford near Killarney, I was hoping it was a bit like Limerick Junction, a good distance from its place name

mindhorn · 11-11-2023 3:00pm

Thanks both! Yeah, his job seems to have resulted in him moving around quite a bit. 1901 and 1911 census has the family living in Knockanes, Co. Kerry. Looks like he may have been living in Clara in the mid 1920s (his daughter's marriage cert has her living there at the time). Moved to Knockmay, Portlaoise afterwards and remained there.

@55Gem I think you've got the right Headford there. It's very close to Knockanes (where they were living in 1901).

Would it be worthwhile contacting anyone in Irish Rail or slim chance they would have anything worth sharing?

stopthevoting · 11-11-2023 3:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121354778#Comment_121354778

It probably is Headford in County Kerry.

It is geographically close enough to Kanturk that it was well known enough to be written without stating the county. (and also, placenames along the railway line would be well known).

I would guess that their residence was in Headford, Co. Kerry at that time (maybe a railway cottage), but that the birth took place in Banteer, Co. Cork for whatever reason (maybe Catherine staying with a relative or friend for assistance).

ath262 · 11-11-2023 3:07pm

Johnson's Railway Atlas mentions a Headford Junction on the GSWR, it was on the line between Rathmore and Killarney and the junction to the line to Kenmare.

55Gem · 11-11-2023 4:52pm

I just noticed the two Headford births weren’t registered until 1907 and 1908 so quite possibly they were living in Kerry at the time of the births.

Hermy · 08-12-2023 10:57am

I wonder can anyone figure out the brides surname for this marriage in Kiltoghart in 1838.

The groom is Mathew Garvey.

It's the last entry on the right hand page.

https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632388#page/81/mode/1up

Handwriting decipher thread *must post link to full page*

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Handwriting decipher thread must post link to full page