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Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 145 ✭✭beastfromtheEast


    I hate racism and discrimination of every kind and I don't care what people do in their bedrooms once it's legal.

    People are people and we as humans are all individuals.

    Israel is a self declared Jewish State and within that group of people there is again a mix of good bad and indifferent just like any group of people.

    I find grouping people together for condemnation repulsive I have no issue with germans or the German people I have no issue with Russians or the Russian people again I have no problem with Jewish people or Israel.

    What all 3 nations I have mentioned have in common is a genocidal nut job in power at some point in their history.

    It is not hateful to point this out.

    One evil man is in power and people need to call this out.





  • This nonsense again. It's very different geographically to Afghanistan. The Palestinians of the Gaza strip are hemmed into an area 7km wide and 25km long unable to escape.

    What are they supposed to do?? They literally cannot escape the line of fire from people armed to the teeth who hate their very existence. This thread is full of stupidity.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,032 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    2006 was 17 years ago.

    Aside from the fact that there have been no ekections in Gaza since then, a huge number of those alive in the strip right now, are literally children, meaning they have never had any say in the selection of any sort of leadership whatsoever.

    Imagine a scenario where police surround and then have SWAT storm a house containing a family of mostly kids because the Dad has fired shots at the police. Many of the kids die during the storming of the house.

    You and others are blaming all the deaths on those in the house, including the kids, for not having divorced and kicked out the father over the last couple of years. You see how blinkered a view that is?

    Even if you just blame 1 person, the kids mother (the man's wife) in this scenario (for having not divorced him), it still doesn't give carte blanche to the police to use excessive force.

    Ffs, even you admit less than half the people who voted in that election in 2006 voted for Hamas, this is victim blaming 'elite' level.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 527 ✭✭✭dickdasr1234



    Hamas must be eliminated, of that there is little doubt.

    I would be very interested in hearing your strategic approach to eliminating Hamas with minimal civilian casualties.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Anyone too young to vote last time or not alive, everyone there under the age of 34.

    What percentage of Gaza is 34 and under



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,612 ✭✭✭✭BorneTobyWilde




  • Posts: 13,688 ✭✭✭✭ Kenya Late Timekeeper




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,032 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    1 - Use sanctions at the international level to impact Hamas funding.

    2 - Use the supposedly elite and revered Mossad to target leadership

    3 - Show the Palestinians that they don't need Hamas.

    Of course, Israel would also have to look closely at its role in creating an environment where groups like Hamas feel they are needed, and that's a big part of why this approach isn't being considered.

    'Never again', they said. 'To us', they thought.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,651 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    1. Sanction Qatar? Sanctioning Iran's been done for awhile and seems it hasn't stopped them from supplying Hamas (including weapons - weapons sanctions should be included.)
    2. That takes time - what do you do in the short term? Mossad took years to catch all the Munich Olympics murderers, and didn't get them all
    3. If Israel rebuilds Gaza and hands it over to the Gazans, what would you expect them to do with it? Previous attempts like handing over Kibbutz facilities to Palestinians resulted in the facilities being destroyed. And, if you mean, give them more freedoms, so 'kill Israelis means we get more freedoms?'



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 464 ✭✭Iamabeliever




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    The Egyptian town of taba which is on the border with Gaza was struck by a munitions last night damaging a building and several vehicles



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,651 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Videos from Hamas GoPro's published; Hamas wanted to kill everyone, not just military like they're claiming. War crimes galore:




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,271 ✭✭✭brickster69


    "if you get on the wrong train, get off at the nearest station, the longer it takes you to get off, the more expensive the return trip will be."



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    In other words, you're saying that Israel shouldn't retaliate against Hamas militarily.

    Utterly absurd.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,271 ✭✭✭brickster69


    EU final text. Looks like they are sticking to the script given to them.



    "if you get on the wrong train, get off at the nearest station, the longer it takes you to get off, the more expensive the return trip will be."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,856 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Retaliate against Hamas all day every day, don't drop 500lb bombs on civilian infrastructure killing innocent men, women, children.


    It's not that hard to understand.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,612 ✭✭✭BoardsMember


    "then I would suggest calibrating your blame"

    I didn't assign blame, I just questioned quantifying the response as moderate when 3,000 children have died.

    If you look at your post, it is you who are assigning blame. Actually, you're assigning 100% blame for everything on Hamas.

    For any 2 state peaceful solution the 2 sides need to get away from the blame game and accept that both sides are both the persecutor and the persecuted.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,280 ✭✭✭seanin4711


    land grab yet again - pure and simple



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,585 ✭✭✭McFly85


    If you are despaired by the Israeli civilian casualties on October 7, despaired further by the ongoing war ensued between Israel and Hamas, then I would suggest calibrating your blame - all of it, less none - against the proximate cause for both, namely Hamas. They are the absolute cancer at the heart of today's conflict.

    Can’t agree with this. Ultimately it gives the Israel government carte Blanche to retaliate however they see fit, because of the opinion of “they started it”(I’m not going to go near who started what tbh, it’s a hugely complex subject that anyone can argue their side for and get nowhere).

    I said it yesterday but people are perfectly entitled to criticise how Israel have acted in the aftermath, and how they continue to act. Hundreds of dead Palestinian civilians is as much a tragedy as Israeli ones - you might like to call one side an act of brutal savagery and the other the unfortunate cost of war but it’s all horrific really.

    Israel have total military superiority and the ability get assistance from much of the western world in terms of funding and intelligence. They are the ones with the real ability to choose how to proceed. They are the ones we are repeatedly told are the more progressive, enlightened side - if that is really the case, they should be seriously taking into account the human cost of their actions.

    And trying to project the number of dead Israeli as a percentage of population in comparison to the US is pure sensationalism, nothing more.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Israel withdrew its settlements and military from Gaza in 2005. Hardly the actions of a state that wants to "land grab".



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 837 ✭✭✭Sir_Name


    Thats not accurate. In 1967, UN Resolution 242, full Israeli withdrawal in exchange for agreement to le Israel exist at peace with its neighbours.

    At the start of the 70's, the PLO i think it was at the time, acquiesced in those terms to resolve the conflict in what became known as the two state solution/settlement. The PLO accepted it. I've posted this before and shall post again. Hamas are extremist and terrorists, however the current situation we are in is largely due to Israels occupation & treatment of Palestinians, and also frankly disregard for international law and to think otherwise is folly.

    I honestly believe that if the International community and by and large Israel, supported the Palestinian civilians, respected the agreed borders, assisted them with aid, education, opportunity etc Hamas would never have the foothold they have now.

    https://time.com/6324221/hamas-origins-history/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,468 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    The number of troops and logistics required to maintain the Gaza settlements was deemed to be unsustainable. The resources were redirected to the West Bank, along with the 'setllers'. It also wrongfooted the Palestinians.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3720176.stm



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You're choosing to start the clock at 1967, whereas we know perfectly well the fons et origo of the conflict emerged from Arab rejection of the original two-state solution in 1947. But even on Resolution 242, the resolution does not explicitly refer to withdrawal from all territories. It's a subtle point that often gets missed.

    As British foreign secretary George Brown confirmed:

    I have been asked over and over again to clarify, modify or improve the wording, but I do not intend to do that. The phrasing of the Resolution was very carefully worked out, and it was a difficult and complicated exercise to get it accepted by the UN Security Council. I formulated the Security Council Resolution. Before we submitted it to the Council, we showed it to Arab leaders. The proposal said 'Israel will withdraw from territories that were occupied', and not from 'the' territories, which means that Israel will not withdraw from all the territories.

    You said, "the PLO accepted it". This is slightly misleading because Israel accepted the resolution when it was first drafted but the PLO actually rejected it.

    It wasn't until 1988 that the PLO accepted Resolution 242.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,065 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Add in the increasing trade, the increasing work permits, Hamas lulled Israel Into a false sense of security, that they wanted normality, a better economic future.


    They should have know better, Hamas think in terms of eternity, not life times.


    When Israel withdrew from Gaza they left lots of turnkey agri businesses, massive glass houses and irrigation systems, highly profitable businesses, all destroyed as they had been built by Jewish hands and that was enough taint in Palestinian eyes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,065 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    If Israel wrong footed the Palestinians, it would have just meant they did it before the Palestinians wrong footed themselves.

    The quote about them never missing an opportunity to miss an opportunity always rings in the ear.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,851 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    That is so utterly naive that it defies comprehension.

    1. Sanctions? How the hell will sanctions work? You are one of the ones complaining that Israel is blocking fuel and water supplies to Gaza. That is a sanction, and so far Hamas haven't surrendered, so any sanctions would have to be more severe than the ones you are complaining about!!!
    2. Mossad? Do you understand how the tunnel system works. Designed and set up to use civilians as shields. Hamas leaders cower in the tunnels, knowing that an awful lot of civilians will need to be killed to get to them, no matter who goes in. Israel, by demanding civilians leave northern Gaza, took a route to remove the civilian shields that Hamas hide behind and minimise civilian casualties.
    3. This does not make any sense. The Palestinians want the elimination of Israel and all the Jews, they have consistently voted for that ideology. Hamas is their chosen way, they voted for them. So the only way that Israel shows the Palestinians they don't need Hamas, is by going away.

    No, the route to peace is simple. Release all the hostages without conditions. Hand over Hamas leadership and those involved in 7/10 to the International Criminal Court for trial. Recognise Israel's right to exist.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,851 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Hamas routinely use innocent men, women and children as human shields, a war crime by the way, so there is no way to retaliate against Hamas without killing innocents, but that is on Hamas, not on Israel. That so many fail to understand the depths of depravity that Hamas operate at is baffling.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,841 ✭✭✭quokula


    "if the International community and by and large Israel, supported the Palestinian civilians, respected the agreed borders, assisted them with aid, education, opportunity etc Hamas would never have the foothold they have now."

    Surely that's blindingly obvious to anyone capable of rational thought.

    If you stop oppressing people, if you stop brutalising them, if you stop violently taking their homes and forcing them into what everyone openly describes as an "open air prison" despite the fact they committed no crime other than being the wrong ethnicity and being indigenous to the land you've decided to steal, if you stop murdering their friends and family routinely because they dared step too close to a fence you erected to pen them in or dared to peacefully protest against their treatment, if you stop describing them as "animals" and deliberately dehumanising them at every turn, if you stop creating massive bureaucratic systems specifically designed to segregate them, to stop them from moving freely or working freely or even having the freedom to supply their own running water, then those people will be less likely in their desperation to turn to extremists as their only possible option to try to change something for the better. If you'd even just stop murdering defenceless innocent children in their thousands that would be a start.

    With our own history in Ireland and how peace was achieved we can see this. The IRA would be stronger than ever right now had the UK acted with the sort of barbaric brutality that Israel routinely does.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,540 ✭✭✭Quitelife


    istael have treated the Palestinians terribly for many decades and killed thousands of them ….is it any wonder Hamas and others were created to fight back against Istael who stole their lands ?

    Israel not Russia will be the cause of World War 3 !



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,490 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Russia is effectively an ally of Hamas and Iran. It all comes back to Russia, including the events in the Middle East. Russian involvement with Syria. Russian involvement with Iran and proxies such as Hamas. The risk of a wider conflict comes from Russia and Iran, not Israel. That is why the US has sent forces to the Middle East to deter that.

    They are meeting in Moscow at the moment.

    https://www.barrons.com/news/hamas-iran-officials-in-moscow-for-talks-301d7d6a

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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