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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,049 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    I feel bad for them. But they should not have been playing international rugby if they were not fit

    Ban billionaires



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,002 ✭✭✭Dick phelan


    In reality you need multiple leaders in a squad. Apart from form Ringrose hasn't the best injury record.



  • Posts: 12,836 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    That's an awful lot of words to disagree with a point nobody actually made, well done.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,860 ✭✭✭leakyboots


    All good points.

    My other criticism of Ringrose is similar to the above in that I feel like he can turn against the flow too much with ball in hand. Earls and latterly Hansen get far less ball from him (I feel, not rooted in anything more concrete!), how is his passing off his left generally? But then he can do damage with his footwork on his own too. He's still a great 13 and on form is our best 13. Would love to see us widen the net a bit as he can pick up injuries.

    The tackling thing - I take the point by others that he's a shooter etc., but missing 41% of tackles at international level this year is a lot in my eyes. But I guess you'd have to analyse all the missed ones and grade them accordingly.

    It's a very interesting time for the team as there will be change in the next 12-18 months in a few positions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,708 ✭✭✭ersatz


    On Ringrose not passing, I’ve been making this point for years, he loves to step in off his right rather than pass the ball off his left. Maybe he doesn’t want his winger isolated, maybe he wants the ruck closer to midfield, maybe he doesn’t trust his pass. BUT, on Saturday he did it a few times and made great yards almost every time. His footwork, agility and power get him through one or two tackles more often than not and he might be the best presenter of the ball in the team.



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  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 36,480 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    I completely disagree. The maul is overpowered as is, if you can't even complete the job by dotting down cleanly why on earth should you be given the ball back five metres out to try again? It's more than enough to have the opposition kick it right back to you from their goal line.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,209 ✭✭✭Mr Tickle


    I hope they're not too quick with the changes to the squad this year. I think given that we're going to be playing a new, fairly young 10 (I'm assuming Crowley will keep the shirt for the start of the 6N) it would be good to keep some of the continuity in tact around him. There's a good chance that neither JGP or Bundee are going to be the starter in a couple of years (at least I hope someone new steps up and displaces them) but it probably makes sense to leave them in situ for a year to let the new 10's grow into the shirt.


    I'm also looking forward to seeing how they do in a team without the presence of Sexton casting a shadow over them. for the last 10 years anyway it's always felt like others were "filling in" for him. the teams were built around him, and for good reason. I'm just looking at the silver lining. It might take a season yet before the comparisons die down but i'm excited to see who grabs the opportunity



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,819 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    I'm excited for the 6nations. It's a new fresh start. Yes there's no Sexton but really this was coming for a long time. Crowley is a fine player. I've no doubts that he'll be an international quality player.

    I just want to see a couple of newbies. It's pointless to continue with an aging squad. We've gone as far as we could with them. We may have to change up our style a bit and there may be blips along the way.

    The schedule is 3 home matches against sides we should beat. These are opportunities to get fresh faces into the mix. I'd like a look at Baird or Prendergast at blindside. Maybe start McCarthy in a couple of matches. I hope to see a new loosehead.

    Nothing drastic, just a natural rebirth!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    I would imagine we'll be waiting until autumn 2024, supplemented by a tier 2 tour in 2025 to really make significant changes to the team. There's a lot of guys contracted until then who will still be performing well and the coaches will want their experience around the camp with Sexton and Earls gone.

    We've a 6N followed by a tour of SA. I just don't see Ireland deviating much from their current squad until after those. We had 37 players in our 6N squad named last January. I'd imagine we'll have our RWC 31 (retirees removed) plus the likes of Frawley, Stockdale, Osborne, Prendergast and one or two others. We may even see Cian Healy back in the squad.

    Hopefully, we're in a position to name a slightly wider squad though given the RWC cycle is starting again along with a few development players. Would also really like to see a Wolfhounds/development tour next summer.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 5,416 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    I totally disagree and the GL drop out makes teams have to be far cleverer. they cant be bashing at line. game speeded up a lot as well...



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,177 ✭✭✭typhoony


    4 years ago you would have looked at the 2019 team and said a lot of the key positions were locked in for 2023, unfortunately the same cannot be said about the 2023 team looking ahead to 2027.

    Players that it might be a step to far for age in 2027...

    Porter 31

    Beirne 35

    JvDF 34

    Furlong 34

    Gibson Park 35

    James Ryan 31

    Ringrose 32

    Henshaw 34

    Lowe 35

    Aki 37

    Anyone under 30 should be good to go in 2027, I left Keenan out of the list above since he rarely gets injured, he'll be 31



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,785 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Porter? 31 is not remotely old for a LHP

    Furlong in theory should also be fine but he's obviously in a bit of a rut at the moment.

    Ryan at 31 at lock should be at his prime

    Ringrose at 32 should be fine

    Henshaw at 34 will be on the edge alright

    That is an extremely pessimistic take and while those players may or may make it, it most certainly won't be cause they are too old.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 5,416 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    Think many of the guys in their early 30s should be ok even if some will have fair bit of mileage on the clock if they stay fit over theq next 4 years



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,292 ✭✭✭Brief_Lives


    can't agree with your hypothesis.

    they will play if they are good enough.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,292 ✭✭✭Brief_Lives


    there are some ridiculously good players coming out of the academies, so this doesn't worry me.

    also, the next best no7 in John Hodnett.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,177 ✭✭✭typhoony


    I think in the following order - injury profile, miles on the clock and questionable 2023 form. I certainly would'nt bet on most of them being there in 2027.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,511 ✭✭✭Wegians89


    Penny and young Quinn at Munster will also be snapping at JVDF’s heels



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,177 ✭✭✭typhoony


    I can't wait to see Gleeson in an Irish Jersey, senior one I mean



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,708 ✭✭✭ersatz


    I’ve a feeling the next few seasons will be some of the most competitive we’ve seen for spots on the Irish team. Experience will keep some of the guys listed above in the mix but I expect much more turnover than we’ve seen in the last cycle.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,803 ✭✭✭BoardsMember


    We could choose to think positively about what we'll develop into for 2027. We might have 2 brilliant players for each of the backrow positions. We might have 4 class locks. It's conceivable that we'll have a significantly stronger team and squad than this year.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,511 ✭✭✭Wegians89


    Considering the success at u20 level over the last few years, there is huge potential there. Hopefully all the provinces can develop this talent effectively.

    Is there any word on who is replacing Nucifora? Will be a very important role.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 5,416 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    Very true but we also must look at what else can be done to close gap between numbers produced by leinster and others. Gap likely to be bigger if elinster continue with their centres of excellence planned like the one in Donnybrook already



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,209 ✭✭✭Mr Tickle


    Porter will still be fine. Maybe not playing 70 mins anymore but still well able to compete for a place in the team.

    Furlong will be closer to the edge, but Healy and Kilcoyne are/were still our next best options at 36 and 34. In 4 years bealham and furlong will be the same, so form dependant, one of them could still be in the mix.

    JGP may struggle considering how much of his game is down to speed. I think Murray lasted as long because he has been in teams that played a slower more controlled game. Plus he has a bit more power to him in defense.

    Ryan and Ringrose should be fine.

    Henshaw might struggle given his injury record.

    Beirne, Lowe, and Aki, in order of increasing unlikelihood, would need to be doing something fairly miraculous to be involved.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 6,064 ✭✭✭jacothelad


    Yes. There is a sobering article in the Independent today about the potential squad for the next 4 year RWC cycle. The only Ulster player in the squad is Henderson. I remember about 10 years ago writing about this possibly happening to Ulster and some of the contributary causes are things such as the destruction of private schools as part of a political agenda from one political party and the demographic evolution of the population. More and more there is a constant move to GB by families and of course the movement of school leavers to universities there also. Once they go they don't tend to return. Of all my close circle of friends and their 37 assorted children who went to uni. in GB, only one child returned and still lives in N.I. It seems their grand children are following the same pathway. Those ex fee paying schools and those type of families were the main source of players over the years who eventually made it into Ulster and Ireland teams. Only Campbell College has been 'allowed' to continue as a private school. Rugby is not played in ordinary State secondary schools and most are too small anyway in practice nor would they have the facilities and in CCMS schools GAA and soccer rule the roost.

    I also feel that at Ulster players seem to have the talent coached out of them even if they make it to the academy. How can thwe failure rate be so high? Who ever re[laces Nucifora must try and redress this failure.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,470 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    While Nucifora is ultimately responsible for the production line remaining constant throughout Ireland, it is also up to Ulster to sort this problem ourselves. You make a good point about the schools system. The schools up here will never spend the money on coaching structures that some Dublin schools do. I feel like the Branch needs to do more in improving coaching standards at schools and youth level across Ulster.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,949 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    I look forward to the next few years of debate as to why Farrell is not building for the RWC in Australia.

    Key areas for RWC '27 are the specialist positions.

    Hooker - Sorted

    LH/TH - Crisis

    No.8 - Sorted

    SH - Mini-Crisis

    OH - Mini-Crisis

    OC - Mini-Crisis

    FB - Mini-Crisis


    Will he wipe the slate clean in 2024? No chance

    6N 2024 is all about SH/OH selections.

    Is 6N 2024 too soon for Nathan Doak? And will 6N 2025 be too soon for a little known boy called Sam?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,049 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    There is also the little spanner in the works, that is Nienaber taking over as head coach at Leinster.

    The Irish success over the past 3 years was based on Ireland being Leinster plus, where Leinster were the dominant team in Ireland, and benefitted from having a very tight development pathway from schools through to the senior team, all of them playing more or less the same style and having players ready to plug into the Leinster and Irish system from a young age

    In the next cycle, Leinster cannot realistically keep going with the same gameplan that has seen them getting beaten in the knockout stages of Europe consistently, nor will they continue to play to the same game plan with a new head coach with a different philosophy about how to play the game

    So, do the current players in the Irish camp suit the new Nienaber gamestyle? Should Ireland continue with a gamestyle that has been unlocked at European and RWC knockouts?

    Do we need a bigger pack, or do we continue to focus on mobility and kicking smartly? With Sexton gone, is JGP the default 9?

    Loads of questions to be asked tbh, I can see a very different team lining up in the 6 nations 2025. The 23 that won us grand slams in 2023 were not the best 23 players in Ireland, they were the 23 players that best suited the specific role that Farrell wanted to fill. We cannot just try to rebuild that exact same team again with minor changes to personnel, if we stand still as a team, we'll end up going backwards.

    The Irish team should always be in the top 4 teams in the world given how strong our 4 clubs are in one of the top 3 domestic leagues in world rugby.

    We should have good enough systems and players to be competitive in the 6 nations every single year, to be winning against the SH teams more often than not, and we should be more than good enough to get out of our Pool in every RWC almost regardless of who our coach is

    Ban billionaires



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 5,416 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    Yeah its not a good look for IRFU. We have to go beyond schools ruqby though as well. Introduce rugby in schools, have them play at blitzes/lower tiers school competitions but get players into clubs more.

    Yeah provinces need to be coaching the coaches far more.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,511 ✭✭✭Wegians89


    Wouldn’t really say there is that many issues. Lots of young talent coming through.

    Porter will be around and the rest will probably be from Loughman, Paddy McCarthy, Milne and Boyle. Probably should be looking to get one of the Leinster lads to move to Connacht / Ulster.


    Hooker will be grand, Sheehan, Kelleher and Stewart are the obvious choices. With a back up cast of Barron, DTM and Gus McCarthy, who is expect to push on over the next four years.


    At tighthead, it’s not impossible to think one of / both Furlong and Bealham are knocking about. O’Toole would be the early favourite for first choice. Depth here hasn’t really convinced me yet with options like Salanoa, Knox, Clarkson, Illo and Barrett all having potential.


    Second row looks very nicely stocked. Ryan snd McCarthy will be there. Henderson and Beirne could still be knocking about too. Young lads like the Murray brothers, Ahern and Edogbo and Izuchukwa could all be capped.


    VDF could still be around in 4 years, Baird and Doris will most likely be mainstays but there’s a surplus of promising players who you could look at in Penny, Prendergast, Coombes, Deegan, Hodnett, Kendellen, Culhane, Gleeson and Quinn. 


    At 9, I’d love to see Casey, Doak, Gunne and Devine all establish themselves as first choice at each province. All have looked class at u20 level. 


    Crowley and Prendergast could be set up for an almighty battle at ten. Will be interesting to see how they develop. If frawley is seen as a ten, himself or Harry Byrne should be moved to Connacht / Ulster. Ross Byrne could also still be knocking about as an elder statesman.


    At centres Ringrose will certainly continue but I’d have my doubts henshaws body will hold up. If it doesn’t there is some decent young talent coming through to add to the likes of Hume , Frisch, Moore and Osborne who are pretty established already. Would be looking at how Hugh Cooney, Cathal Forde, Shane Jennings, John Devine and Postlethwaite develop.


    In the back three then, you have Keenan, Hansen, JOB and Nash who have been involved already. Stockdale and Larmour are young enough to rediscover their form. While the likes of TOB, Kilgallen and McErlean could break through. 



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  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 36,480 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Is there any kind of club rugby scene in Ulster? If the schools pipeline is dead in the water, there has to be another way to get young people playing.



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