Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Yes, Hamas executed civilians and the IDF executed POWs.

Isn't it true though that the overwhelming majority of people killed in the conflict historically have been Palestinians? I was looking at a report on the disparity of casualties (albeit dated 2014 but I imagine the proportions haven't changed much). From 2005 until that point, 4,006 people were killed in the conflict — comprising 168 Israelis and a frankly staggering 3,838 Palestinians.

Again, I just struggle to understand the thinking and rationale that underpins the way people seem to confidently choose sides in this debate. Hamas are fundamentalist religious fanatics who would gleefully commit the same level of barbarity as last weekend a thousand times over if they had the chance. The Palestinians do have an eminently just grievance against Israeli domination, oppression and aggression — not least based on the nature of their conditions and the fact that they have died in far greater number. Israel has legitimate concerns about its defence and cannot be expected to just entirely roll over and let its people be slaughtered and Israel exists now whether people like that or not — it can't just be expected to disappear. Hatred of Israel runs further than a simple territorial dispute or "freedom fight" in the eyes of many in the Arab world and beyond — there is a religious and Jew-hating fanaticism in there too.

All these things can be true at once. The barbarities committed by both sides go far beyond what can always be called a romantic freedom fight or a reluctant obligation to self-defence. There isn't going to be Palestinian freedom or Israeli security until people can make the ideological sacrifices necessary for either thing to exist.

I guess even the word “terrorist” these days is a loaded term. One groups terrorist is another groups “freedom fighter” - even that term “freedom fighter” is loaded and misused.

In terms of Hamas specifically no sorry, I definitely don’t believe they’re “freedom fighters”- they’re mass manipulators would be my best description - but as we’ve seen many times , what a groups stated aims are Vs what they actual do or end up doing to their own people (ISIS for example) can be poles apart.

Have Israel done wrong? Sure. Are Hamas freedom fighters? No, I disagree strongly on that description- the western world has been fooled too many times with those descriptions and rhetoric; western countries seem to irradiate “terrorist” organisations one day and “free” a country , only for another worse regime to take over a few years later. I think we need an international agreement around what is a terrorist regime vs what is a legitimate and recognised resistance organisation fighting an illegitimate and destructive and controlling force.

But I don’t think I’ll be holding my breath on getting that agreement 😀

Is it equally wrong to invent or exaggerate atrocities as it is, as you say to downplay them?

Of course. I don’t believe I have ever once said otherwise.

Thats not what Biden did though. He simply misspoke.

He didn't misspeak, he lied plain and simple .

Former advisor to Israeli PM saying that Israel's targeting of terrorists through bombing civilian compounds is misguided and doomed to failure.

"Activities" means something that someone or some group has done or is doing. It's perfectly fine English. When coupled with the word "egregious", it's easy to see what type of activity is meant.

We have one poster losing their crap over a word and another throwing out the anti-Semite slur and all over a relatively innocuous post, especially when it's compared with some of the stuff that's been posted.

The state of this thread.

How do you know he's always mis speaking?

A genuine question for you and others who think Israel should not respond by military means to Hamas;

What do you do think they should be doing instead? What else can they actually do?

I have yet to see anyone suggest any reasonable alternative.

That is a complete non runner after last weekend.

In an ideal world yes but in practical terms it would not work, nor would the Palestinians be interested in it and no one in Israel will allow it now and that's just from the ones who campaigned for it in the past

He's absolutely spot on there.

Well at least you calmed down a bit, btw do you consider your own posts to be a contributor to the “state of this thread” or is that beneath you.

I have been perfectly calm throughout.

I'm not the one losing their crap over a word, nor am I throwing out accusations of "anti-Semitism" either.

In practical terms, this is never going to go away in the absence of a Palestinian state and the backing of more moderate voices in Palestine to the detriment of Hamas.