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General Premier League Thread 2023-24 Mod Note in op 27/6/23 And 21/05/24

17273757778410

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,258 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    The rules state that once play has restarted then you can’t retrospectively go back.

    A lot of people have commented in numerous forums regarding a penalty kick after the final whistle in a match. But in that case the match hadn’t been restarted (ie the ref blew the final whistle while the bat were reviewing) and then var awarded the penalty as there had been no restart.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,906 ✭✭✭✭citytillidie


    That is exactly what it was. It was a clear goal that was chalked off because by the sounds of it the only person paying attention on the VAR room was the video operator lol

    ******



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,258 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    But it wasn’t as if they made a completely incorrect decision, it was just they didn’t communicate it correctly.

    I think a way worse decision was when they drew the lines on the wrong person to chalk off a goal.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,371 ✭✭✭✭Arghus


    So you can't retrospectively go back once the check has completed and play has restarted.

    But you can retrospectively go back if the check is ongoing while play is continuing, even if a greater period of time in the game has passed?

    Because there have been incidents in games where play will continue for longer than it did the period of the VAR check on the Diaz goal - but it will be eventually restarted again if something is awarded.

    If those are the rules, well then I guess they're the rules, but, it seems crazy to me that when a decision is as clearly wrong as it was in that instance - and the error had been recognised -that there's no option for a restart.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,906 ✭✭✭✭citytillidie


    So missing a goal the object of the game is okay, yes drawing lines on the wrong player is also bad but that is up to the video ref to make sure he has looked at the full picture before confirming. This is a complete failure of the whole system which is worse.

    ******



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,258 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    It’s different (and terrible) but not worse. I think VAR incorrectly making a decision and nobody correcting them is at least the same if not worse. (Hypothetically speaking 😂😂)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,258 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    I believe that is correct. And the rule is completely arbitrary. I suppose to stop reviewing decisions after restarts.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,271 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    Why should other clubs have to accept him as a ref if he isn't good enough for Liverpool?

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,258 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    Could it be potentially for his own safety as opposed to his ability?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,011 ✭✭✭✭~Rebel~


    It's already been mentioned a few times that during the World Cup a goal given to France against Tunisia was rescinded upon review even after the game had restarted. France appealed, and were rejected. So the precedent is there that you can indeed restart play and quickly halt the game to fix the error.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,011 ✭✭✭✭~Rebel~


    People have always made bad judgement calls in the moment, whereas a fundamental structural failing is a different thing - and knowing the correct call, but knowingly continuing with the wrong call (especially when that call is the actual scoreline of the match) is a different thing.

    The most similar one was the Sheffield United one, where their perfectly good goal was chalked off because the watch never beeped -- VAR was there, with a camera angle showing it was a goal, and never interceded. That was an absolute travesty of a one as well.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,258 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    wow, I had never heard of that but read the analysis here https://www.football365.com/news/france-demand-fifa-overturn-defeat-tunisia-referee-broke-rules

    to be fair the decision taken was wrong not the rule.

    Its a fcucking sh1t show to be honest.



  • Posts: 14,734 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Ya that's what I'm getting at like if he isn't fit for the job he shouldn't be reffing on the league at all.

    What they have done doesn't make much sense to me



  • Posts: 14,734 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    If that was the case or a case where he didn't feel mentally up to doing Liverpool games they shouldn't have announced it and just quietly taken him away, and most would barely would notice.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,404 ✭✭✭doc_17


    For some reason these 2 VAR lads are getting paid loads of money to go out and ref in Abu Dhabi. Why? Because they are very good????? Do people understand lobbying and soft power?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,011 ✭✭✭✭~Rebel~


    Yeah, so France's appeal being rejected, upholding the refs decision to pull it back for the correct result, sets the precedent that this can be done, or is at least a viable possibility. In this instance the VAR didn't even have the common sense to notify the ref of the error though.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,011 ✭✭✭✭~Rebel~


    Not assigning him to any more Liverpool matches makes total sense to me - it would just be a massive story and overshadow the game, and the last thing the PGMOL will want is to make refs be the main story before a weekend even kicks off - but they should've probably just done it instead of announcing it. Simply don't assign him to Liverpool matches, without the declaration.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Agh Jurgen, look what you've started on boards (well restarted, thread was dying).

    He can be too honest sometimes, it's why I love him.

    There's so much click bait headlines from managers interviews these past few years. You see a big claim in a headline, then read the article and go wtf? How did they get that headline out of a whole press conference.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,258 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    But VAR can really only go by the rules (i know that sounds ridiculous in the current situation) rather than a one off incorrect interpretation of the rules.

    Did they notify the ref at any stage after the event? I thought it was alleged that they did and the ref was about to blow his whistle but then didn’t. I could be wrong on that?

    Do you think Liverpool are considering raising that World Cup incident in a bid for restitution?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,011 ✭✭✭✭~Rebel~


    Well, they broke the core fundamental rule of football officiating (correctly keeping score). The only way to rectify that massive massive breach and chief purpose of their existence, was to break a much smaller rule. Common sense dictates that's the obvious thing to do, just as it dictated it was the right thing to do in the France Tunisia game - which of course was officially vindicated upon investigation by FIFA.

    I think everyone can probably all agree that had they stopped it after 7 seconds and fixed the error, that the outcome would have been better.

    The official position of the PGMOL is that they did not tell the ref at any point, that the ref discovered himself at half time.

    And no, I don't think the France Tunisia thing can really be used for restitution - there can't be any restitution - it just shows further that the lad on VAR moronically chanting "i can't do anything" over and over maybe could've thought outside the box a little bit, or at very least informed his boss on the field as the VAR had done in that game.

    (I'd also have kinda expected that someone within this specific industry and role would've known all about the France situation, seeing as it was only a few months ago, and thought about it as a solution, but i'm probably giving these lads too much credit there)



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,258 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    I think this article is an excellent explanation of the real reason for using the word replay in his press conference. Not for this game to be replayed but as a watershed moment to change the rules regarding incorrect var decisions. In a way the replay would be an appalling vista so why not allow the decision to be overruled/overturned during the match.

    I’m not sure if it was the best way of doing it and he even admitted he would be ridiculed for it but it definitely got people discussing it.

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/klopp-liverpool-tottenham-var-offside-31107339



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,662 ✭✭✭✭Fitz*


    The restitution is a change to the wording of VAR to be more clear and concise. As has been said for a long time, it's needed and this should be the only time something like this happens. One team loses out and that's it.

    Yeah he should be gone from all games really.

    To play devil's advocate here, maybe Liverpool pushed to have the VAR official, England, be removed from the league overall as it's the biggest error one can make while a VAR official and he is the 'PGMOL poster-boy' according to that Telegraph report. It's possible that as a reply to that, the PGMOL said we can't do that so we'll just take him off your games instead. Which is messy.

    Lee Mason was sacked as a VAR official after his error in that Brentford -Arsenal game that many keep mentioning. Maybe Arsenal pushed for that last season? I don't know if they did but Mason was sacked because of that incident.



  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 5,602 Mod ✭✭✭✭spockety


    Delighted Klopp mentioned a replay, just to see everyone here completely losing their reason 🤣


    Us against the world, pressure on officialdom, it's time tested and trusted. Keep it up Jurgen, I'll get my spittle visor on.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,500 ✭✭✭howiya


    I haven't read anything that would make me believe that FIFA vindicated the referee for going against the rules in the France Tunisia game.

    All we know is that they rejected the appeal.

    We also know that the appeal was frivolous in nature given France finished top of their group regardless.

    Most likely FIFA said let's move on nothing to see here rather than any vindication of the referee for going against the laws of the game.

    https://www.espn.co.uk/football/story?id=37634594&_slug_=fifa-dismisses-frances-protest-antoine-griezmanns-disallowed-goal-vs-tunisia

    It has taken FIFA's disciplinary committee five days to issue a response, with a short statement dismissing the appeal.

    It read: "The FIFA Disciplinary Committee has dismissed the protest submitted by the French Football Association in relation to the Tunisia v. France FIFA World Cup match played on Nov. 30."

    No further information was offered.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,011 ✭✭✭✭~Rebel~


    That judgment is enough. There was a small rule breach to rectify a far larger rule breach. The team that rightly lost out lodged an official complaint, which was dismissed. As this is the only prior event of this occurrence, it is the only known precedent from which to work. It is logical to follow that if the same decision was made, and an appeal was lodged (which I really doubt Spurs would do anyway), that the same ruling would be reached.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,500 ✭✭✭howiya


    My point is that France didn't lose out and its logical that the appeal was dismissed solely for that reason. There was no reason or benefit to uphold the appeal. You're claiming the referee was vindicated but have offered nothing to back that up.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,011 ✭✭✭✭~Rebel~


    The broader context is entirely irrelevent. That's not how judgements on specific incidents are conducted. They appealed a specific decision by the referee, and had that appeal dismissed.

    As for 'vindication', i suppose the word is open to interpretation. But the fact is the ref made a decision, that decision was appealed against, with the appeal dismissed, and the ref was not in any way sanctioned. That to me indicates they sided with his interpretation and actions in the situation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,258 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    I understand your train of thought but I don’t know what your conclusion is. The rule wasn’t changed and what happened in the French match did not happen in the Spurs match.

    Until the rule is changed (which may happen) that one incident is not relevant. Well apart from a playbook that VAR could have attempted to use at the time. But he froze.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,011 ✭✭✭✭~Rebel~


    And of course we'll never know what would have happened if the ref had been informed, and given the opportunity to apply common sense. Maybe it would have gone the same way, maybe not. But there is a precedent we can look towards which may at least guide our thinking on what could have possibly occurred (and as we know with law and arbitration, existing precedents do have a habit of guiding future decision making).

    Though i really doubt Spurs would ever have complained anyway - the game states were very different, with an hour left to play. I'm sure had the ref had a word with Ange and Klopp, and explained the situation, they'd have all got on with it for the next hour.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,500 ✭✭✭howiya


    Care to show how its irrelevant?

    To win an appeal you'd have to show a decision negatively affects you. The result of the France Tunisia game had no impact on how the group finished.

    Do you really think FIFA were going to overturn a result at a world cup five days after the event illiciting negative headlines for an outcome that wouldn't have benefited anyone? It may have been different if Denmark/Australia had needed Tunisia to lose to go through.

    The only thing England did right on Saturday was to not try to get the referee to stop the game.



This discussion has been closed.
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