General Premier League Thread 2023-24 Mod Note in op 27/6/23 And 21/05/24

Sorry to jump in on the “human error” angle. If this is the cause of this issue as a lot of posters have said then a sanction of the person/people involved is the way to address………. If the fix for this issue is clarifying or defining the communication protocol then the cause is not human error but a system/process error

Was Dubai they were in (not that it makes a difference, but just for clarity)

Ah in fairness, this stuff doesn't help - there's actual fundamental structural problems within English reffing, and conspiracy stuff only serves to distract from the real issues that need to be fixed.

It's hard to listen to that recording and imagine anything as intelligent as intentional fixing. It was a clown show, within a process that allows and encourages it to be a clown show. Meanwhile City themselves were screwed by an atrocious ref decision this week too.

Was just the Diaz goal. Maybe more was provided to the club, but the Diaz goal is all that's been made public.

I don't know actually... the place we've been hearing VAR conversations is in those selected cases on that Webb show "Mic'd Up". One would expect clubs would be able to get the audio on specific appeal cases, but who knows if they do.

Was I surprised when the referee was calling the VAR mate and vice versa? No

Was I surprised at the self-congratulation of doing a good job? No

It all speaks to the poor culture within PGMOL.

You are at work in a formal situation, you act professionally, you don't refer to each other as mate, you don't self-congratulate, you use formal specific language. What if this had happened?

Ref: There is a question about offside, can I award the goal?

VAR (having examined the footage): The player is clearly onside, check complete, you may award the goal.

There is no need for any other conversation, there is no need for people speaking above one another, there is no need for confusion, keep it formal, keep it clear, keep it specific.

If we don't have that kind of reform, then sooner or later one of them is going to say "fancy a beer later, mate".

More women, more Asians, more people of colour, more recruited from abroad, a new culture, all things needed to improve PGMOL.

All of this has been evident for a while. There is nothing special about Liverpool being on the end of this latest VAR cock-up, the only pity is that they and their supporters are late to the party, though to be fair, they are the loudest complainants so far.

In fairness, the use of nicknames was an issue in this case. There was confusion as to whether Oli referred to Michael Oliver or Oli Kohout.

Just asking for officials to use standard titles when referring to someone instead of a name or nickname should be an obvious update.

Well I think they should look at the whole process for language used. Anything that could cause confusion or sound ambiguous should be revised.

One thing that stands out from the audio is the speed in which they’re trying to make these decisions which is all the more reason for absolute clarity in the language used - a split second of misunderstanding can end up causing the whole process to break down.

You’re right there.

In rugby, the communication is clear, even when they get things wrong.

Game last weekend in RWC, where scrum collapses and referee awards penalty to Argentina. The scrum occurred over by the side-line, and the Chile complained because they should have got the decision, as the scrum went down on the other side from the ref and was caused by Argentina. The TV commentators saw this and had commented on it. The ref came round to that side of the scrum and said to the Chilean captain that he didn’t expect the linesman on that side of the scrum, a full pitch width away, to be able to see the foul, so “sorry, we play on”. He figured he might have got the call wrong and apologised but couldn’t change his call.

We have so much time added these days, an extra minute here would have saved a world of woe.

These are the other 14 apology scenarios:

Crystal Palace vs Aston Villa (August 2022)         PGMOL apologised to Crystal Palace after referee Andy Madley changed his decision on a Palace penalty after looking at the monitor, despite a handball from Villa defender Lucas Digne.

Chelsea vs West Ham (September 2022)            Jarrod Bowen saw a late equaliser for West Ham ruled out following a foul on Edouard Mendy, with PGMOL apologising for the foul awarding.

Newcastle vs Crystal Palace (September 2022) Joe Willock was deemed to have impeded goalkeeper Vicente Guaita, meaning Newcastle's goal - an own goal by Palace defender Tyrick Mitchell - was ruled out. PGMOL subsequently apologised for the decision.

Man Utd vs Arsenal (September 2022)                 Gabriel Martinelli saw a goal incorrectly ruled out by VAR after Arsenal captain Martin Odegaard was adjudged to have fouled Christian Eriksen. PGMOL apologised for awarding the foul.

Fulham vs Aston Villa (October 2022)                  PGMOL apologised after the referee incorrectly showed Aston Villa midfielder Douglas Luiz a red card for an incident involving Aleksandar Mitrovic.

Nottingham Forest vs Brentford (November 2022)         Brentford were incorrectly awarded a penalty against Nottingham Forest, with it later deemed that goalkeeper Dean Henderson had not fouled Bees attacker Yoann Wissa.

Aston Villa vs Manchester United (November 2022)      Lucas Digne's free kick goal for Aston Villa should have been ruled out, as United's wall was positioned too far back than the requisite 10 yards by the referee.

Brighton vs Liverpool (January 2023)                    PGMOL apologised for showing Liverpool's Fabinho a yellow card, rather than a red card, for a high tackle on Brighton's Evan Ferguson.

Crystal Palace vs Brighton (February 2023)         VAR official John Brooks ruled out Pervis Estupinan a goal for Brighton for offside, but it later emerged that he had drawn the offside lines next to the wrong player and the goal should have stood.

Arsenal vs Brentford (February 2023)        Ivan Toney's goal for Brentford stood after VAR official Lee Mason missed that Bees midfielder Christian Norgaard was in an offside position.

Everton vs Man City (February 2023)        Everton were incorrectly denied a penalty when a handball by City midfielder Rodri wasn't given.

Tottenham vs Brighton (April 2023)           Brighton were not awarded a penalty against Spurs after Pierre-Emile Hojbjerg was deemed not to have fouled Kaoru Mitoma, but PGMOL later apologised for the decision.

Man Utd vs Wolves (August 2023)             Wolves were denied a late penalty when United goalkeeper Andre Onana wiped out Sasa Kalajdzic in the box. PGMOL later sent an apology to Gary O'Neil's side.

For me, the worst 3 are Jarred Bowen, Pervis Estupinan and Luis Diaz, as they all had valid goals disallowed. After that Brentford’s “goal” standing. It’s a lot of f**k ups to be fair.

@blanch152 "All of this has been evident for a while. There is nothing special about Liverpool being on the end of this latest VAR cock-up, the only pity is that they and their supporters are late to the party, though to be fair, they are the loudest complainants so far."

I don't think the Liverpool fans got too vocal when Harry Kane tried to cut Andy Robertson in half back in the day

This is what VAR deemed "not a red card" back then.

Perhaps this s**t decision on Sunday was just the last straw. Perhaps.

Definitely. I don’t think it will help in the jones situation as I don’t think you can appeal an appeal.

He is winding you up, don't take the bait:)

Like all good articles these days, read the full statement and work it out for yourself.

Here's the actual quote. "I say this not as manager of Liverpool but as a football person - I think the only outcome should be a replay. Probably will not happen."

So its not Liverpool. That's his personal take.

Personally, I think it won't, and can't happen. The IFAB rule about re-starting games is the only "grey area" that could be modified next Spring, but I doubt there would be any appetite for that, as where would you draw the line for a time allowed for going back in the play?

The fix is inside the VAR booth. I await the next error.

Oh so Juergen klopp doesn’t manage or speak for Liverpool now. That’s a new one