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Laws Question? Ask here!

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  • Registered Users Posts: 21,143 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Referees are always on an ongoing basis policing the laws. In rugby if the ref depended only on the whistle, the game wouldn't happen.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,640 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    For Van der Flier’s maul try did Gibson-Park get caught joining the maul ahead of him illegally? Something I spotted but heard no mention of it afterwards.

    A defender attempted to join the maul on the try-line but GP got between VdF and the defender. If GP hadn’t blocked the defender then the defender would have had a chance to maul onto VdF and looked likely the defender would have gotten his hands on the ball.

    Would the defender have been illegal there or should GP have been penalised?



  • Registered Users Posts: 530 ✭✭✭Ben Bailey


    Looks like JGP joins the mail from behind the hindmost foot (Sheehan) so is legal. The Toulouse joins the ruck legally since the goal line, rather than the hindmost foot of his team mates, is his offside line.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,640 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    No, he joined the maul to the right side of Van der flier, with Furlong at the back of the maul. He bypassed about three players and right in front of the ref he joined onto the side and blocked the defender getting access to the ball carrier.

    This is a second later just as Van der flier crosses the line, GP is actually after slipping ahead and is basically a shield now dragging him forward from in front. It’s actually quite amazing, I’ve seen that given as a penalty this season, I don’t know what the ref or the linesman or the TMO were looking at to have missed that.

    The replay was even clearer,




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    The IRFU Union Committee have formally voted to opt into World Rugby’s global trial to lower the tackle height in the community game to below the line of the sternum.

    It follows an earlier vote by the IRFU Rugby Committee and an extensive community consultation process with Irish Rugby stakeholders.

    The trial will apply to all amateur IRFU and provincial competitions at age-grade and adult levels in clubs and schools for the 2023/24 and 2024/25 seasons.

    https://www.irishrugby.ie/2023/06/01/irfu-opt-into-world-rugby-tackle-trial/



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    Sternum is strange way of defining it given it's a vertical thing in your chest rather than horizontal.

    This law is potentially quite dangerous. If the option to make an upright tackle is removed the chances of getting your head on the wrong side while trying to tackle a player who could change direction go up.



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,074 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    To be honest, I don't see this making much difference at all.

    All it does is take any ambiguity whatsoever away from the upright head contact tackle. The ambiguity now will be about whether the contact is below the shoulders, and in the community game there's is no tmo to check these things

    One good focus of this is to acknowledge the responsibility of the ball carrier in initiating the head contact by leading with the head on a carry.



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,074 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    whats quite confusing / ambiguous is that the line drawn across the two shadow players on that site isnt actually on the sternum, the bottom sternum is higher than that, usually for most males its around the nipple line.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,530 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    Overall it's a positive for securing the future of the game, but I can see a lot of difficulty around pick and go, particularly close to the line. Nearly impossible to tackle someone around the waist if they take the ball already crouched/bending - and a tackle around the legs isn't likely to be able to generate enough leverage to stop momentum drive the player back from the line.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,771 ✭✭✭✭phog


    I think that line is in keeping with their one liner "Belly Tackle = Safest Tackle" get that message across and you eliminate high tackles



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  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,168 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Mine is a good 8cm lower than nipple height. Maybe I just have perky tits.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,150 ✭✭✭Mr Tickle


    Sorry if this has been dealt with before but nobody that I've asked about it seems to know.

    So we know that it's illegal to deliberately throw a pass into touch or to throw it over the dead ball line. I know there's a famous example of a French (???) player passing it dead in the 81st min to give away a penalty but i can't find it.

    I'm wondering how these three situations would be judged. For all three, lets say we're in the 80th min of a game, the leading team are in possession near their own try line. The 10 is hanging back by the dead ball line to take the pass to kick it out. The last ruck of the game is messy, the ball spills out and the 9 is under pressure. then one of the following happens:

    1. The 9 gets pass away but it's bad and goes over the 10's head and goes dead.
    2. The pass goes towards the 10, but he's after looking away for a second so it goes dead.
    3. The ball is going towards the 10 (or maybe a winger near the touchline) but there's a defender up in their face so they just step out of the way and deliberately let it go dead.

    I know it's niche but I'm always curious about edge cases like this.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,771 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Genuine passes would not be penalised for deliberately throwing the ball into touch or throwing it dead.


    Something similar but completely different 😁 years ago, ROG had indicated to kick a penalty at goal, then he spotted a winger all on his own out on the touchline and he jokingly whispered to the ref would he penalise him if he skewed his kick at goal.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,150 ✭✭✭Mr Tickle


    So for situation 1 or 2 then it's down to how genuine it looks?

    Situation 3 is the one that looks most open to abuse, though admittedly in very niche cases. The pass is genuine, but there's no obligation to catch it.


    The obvious solution to ROG is to bounce it off the post. Easy



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,074 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    in my opinion its all down to the referees interpretation of "intention" as the foul is "Intentionally throwing or knocking the ball into touch."

    so in your examples above

    (1) the ref has to decide that, in their opinion, was it a bad pass or an intentional throw over the dead ball line

    (2) once the ref sees that the 10 was genuinely looking away and not deliberately allowing the ball go dead, it should be ok, which brings it to

    (3) if the ref thinks the 10 has allowed the pass to go dead by intentionally not playing the ball, he could penalise the player under law 9.27 "A player must not do anything that is against the spirit of good sportsmanship" which would return the same sanction ie penalty on the 5 in line with where the offense took place.

    thats what i would do anyway.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    on 1 depends on how far over the 10s head the pass goes. was the 10 realistically able to catch the pass. if ref deems they werent then they could be penalised. same with 2 all on officials belief that the 10 deliberately chose to not play ball.

    3 penalise them



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,771 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Obviously, there is no obligation to catch a ball but the pass must be deemed genuine by the ref. It would be dodgy for the "receiver" to allow a ball pass him without catching it, if he had that time to think about catching it or not then why not catch it an run it into touch.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,150 ✭✭✭Mr Tickle


    Yeah, or catch and ground it. There are simpler ways around it for sure.


    For situation 3, are you penalising them under the deliberate pass law or the sportsmanship law?


    Obscure hypothetical number 2. This one I've seen nearly happen twice in the last year. If a player is diving to score a try in the corner, and they with their leg/foot on top of the corner flag, does that count as in touch or not? I don't mean that they make contact with it. I mean they knock it down then their foot lands on top of it so that it is keeping the foot from touching the ground out of play?



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,184 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Does anybody know why the law below is being completely ignored at the world cup? There are hookers standing fully on the pitch not just touching the line. The touch judge is usually standing next to the hooker so it isn't like they cant see the hooker standing on the pitch.

    Law 22: The player throwing in the ball stands on the mark of touch with both feet outside the field of play. The thrower must not step into the field of play until the ball has been thrown. Sanction: Option of lineout or scrum.

    Hard to find images of it but here is one from the portugal-wales game




  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,168 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    You can clearly see the red boot of the hooker completely behind the line there and his green boot is partially on the line. This is not a good example but there have been lots of hookers about 10cm in on the pitch and never called. No idea why this and the distance between the teams is not reffed, it's a fairly obvious and easy call.

    Maybe you accidentalyl posted the wrong image as the highlighted areas seem to refer to something else entirely. I can't see anything wrong with Martins position. Granate is the nominated receiver, maybe he's out of position? As Portugal are throwing in, they have the choice of how many to put in. Wales have an extra man, as far as I can see, and another player who is not the receiver and not far away enough from the lineout. But the thrower is just preparing here, so they have a couple of seconds to adjust.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 40,184 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Yeah, its not a great image. the highlighted area isn't relevant to my question. the position of the hookers feet is the relevant part. he is definitely on the pitch. I'll try to find a better image



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,143 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Straight lines, up to the mark and gap are the three most important aspects. Yes, as a hooker, I am always bugged by the hooker standing on the pitch, but it isn't that important.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,530 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    My understanding of the law, and how it's reffed, is that both feet just need to be touching the line to be considered "outside of the field of play."

    Same as in open play - if you're touching the line then you are deemed to be in touch. In pic above both feet are touching the line, so both are in touch.


    For instances where players have had a foot clearly fully inside the line and not touching it, no idea why a touch judge would ignore it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,184 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    why have the law then if it is ignored? a clearer example from saturdays match. the touch judge is right there.




  • Registered Users Posts: 8,530 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    The hooker is not past the line in that image though? At worst he is on the line in this one



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,143 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    There are lots of Laws in Rugby. The referee and officials seek to run the game fairly and smoothly. Esp at breakdown and rucks you have the ref constantly instructing players, eg, get back. If they officiated solely with the whistle, we'd have no match.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,184 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    well to me they are on the field of play. unless they have no toes. i'm having trouble finding better images but there were definitely occasions where the heels of the hooker were on the pitch.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,184 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    It isn't exactly a difficult law to referee. Refs and touch judges are quick to step in when the hooker is a foot to the left or right of where they should be.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,969 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    I do remember seeing one incident in this RWC where the hooker had both feet about 20cm inside the field of play. Can't remember the match but it might been an Aussie one. Someone commented on it in the RWC thread.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,530 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    If it's open play then you are deemed to be off the field of play once you make contact with the line with any part of your foot. Same principle here - that's how I've always seen it being refereed



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