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Is the UK now giving off strong Third World vibes?

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭yagan


    I lived there for a few years recently and I commonly saw material poverty in parts of north England that I hadn't seen since I worked in around Sheriff street in the 80s.

    If I hadn't seen with my own eyes I would have said the thread title was nonsense.

    I invited an old friend living in London to visit us in north England and they'd never been north of Birmingham. They left us in shock, convinced they had just visited another country.

    In many of these places post industrial decline didn't started in the 1960/70s, it started after the first world war and hasn't stopped since.



  • Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Remember Thatchers rebates were negotiated because she didn't want regional development aid from the EU.

    The Tories have been waging class warfare against the poor for 4 decades. If you don't realise this it's difficult to understand why the UK is in the state it is in.



  • Posts: 12,694 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    That is when you start losing people, daft Marxist nonsense.



  • Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It started with breaking the Unions and working class culture. The miners strike was a defining moment for modern Britain. The isn't anything Marxist about seeing this piece of history as a pivot for the nation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,537 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    it's not marxist nonsense though, it's proven, established reality.

    the amount of evidence to back it up is staggering.

    large scale poverty, large scale low wages, rights slowly being removed, large areas of the place in irreparable terminal decline.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,310 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    Av salary in UK is 33k.

    26.4k take home without optional deductions = 80% of gross income.

    Av salary in ireland is 45k.

    35.5k take home without optional deductions = 78.9% of gross income.

    The cost of everything in ireland is much higher than the UK, further compounding the difference in take home pay value.

    Basically, your money goes a lot further in the UK & you get to keep more of it.

    There are also no fees for visting doctors or bank account charges etc.

    Everything from grocery costs, energy bills to Sky TV and the price of a pint is significantly cheaper in the UK.

    Why do you think everyone scarpers up north to do their shopping if they live anywhere near the border.

    And once you move past the average earnings, the disparity becomes even greater.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,659 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    On the figures you give here, the average worker in Ireland is still better off, despite the slightly higher tax rate. This is more than compensated for by the considerably higher average earnings.

    People who live near the border may go north to shop, because many things are cheaper there. But they work south of the border, because wages are higher. If they would be better off with UK-level wages and taxes, we'd see substantial migration to the north — there are no legal, language, social or cultural barriers to prevent it. In fact net migration is very much the other way.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Tbh, I live near the border and I find not that much difference between the North and South for grocery shopping, especially like for like in a chain like Aldi. It wouldn't be worth your while in time and petrol to go across on a weekly basis.

    If you are buying a lot of booze or stuff in the chemist, it would be worth it then.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,664 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    But sadly, there is a huge amount of gaslighting by the British media. I saw a documentary a few months ago and the reporter was asking people in the north of England 'Why don't you emigrate?'. Their reply was along the lines of 'Why would I emigrate? I live in England, the greatest country in the world' (with an obvious kip in the background as the setting).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3 MerseyMark


    I live in Liverpool which has plenty of areas that are really poverty stricken, not to mention filthy. Most things about Ireland I find better than here.

    However, one thing that really lets your country down is its 'streetscape'. Street lighting seems archaic over there in many areas and needs updating. If you've travelled along Chapelizod Road in Dublin you may notice what I mean. It's not just there though, it seems everywhere.

    Also, the endless wires and cables linking lampposts. Yuk! I looks awful. I know it's expensive to lay all this underground but it doesn't look great. I am clutching at straws here though, and I'd much rather live in Ireland than the ever declining UK.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 191 ✭✭Unflushable Turd


    I’m surprised no one has mentioned cars yet.

    I’ve just bought two cars since moving to England, one cost me £22k and would have cost me north of €40k in Ireland, the other is a mini that we paid £7500 for and would have cost over €15k back home.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 102 ✭✭goodlad_ourvlad


    you're not allowed mention that, along with cheaper insurance, road tax and PCP deals.

    UK have water rates, Ireland doesn't so Ireland = cheaper



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,618 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    Ireland is it's own little f*cked up microcosm when it comes to car ownership.

    VRT is a scam.



  • Posts: 12,694 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    yes, but it is not something organised and planned by some elite in society to keep the working class down, the reasons for it are probably multilayered and complex.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,537 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    no but it is something planned by the tories as a way to divest in as much of the uk as possible, but keep enough money coming in for themselves and their cronies.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Wonder how that leveling up thing is going, or the £250 million a day for the NHS.

    Would be interesting to see poverty levels for deprived area from Maggie to Blairs time, and from then to now.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,329 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    You're not technically wrong but when you see the amount of lobbying that happens here, the complete absence of checks and balances, the unfit-for-purpose voting system and the disgusting levels of influence employed by the elites along with their tax dodging, it's hard not to be a bit riled.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I will state it again - Maggie's Tory government deliberately and intentionally managed the miners strike and the GPO strike to break the unions and they spent the rest of their terms in power introducing legislation to that effect. They are still doing it.

    Also the way that poor and disabled people are treated by the Tory government is another form of attack on the working class.

    If that is not class warfare then I don't know what is.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,329 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    There's a little bit more to it than that in fairness. Prior to 1979, the Unions had become incredibly corrupt. The only way to get some jobs was through the Unions and, of course, there were regular blackouts, strikes and the like. Pressure was mounting for something to be done.

    I personally prefer a more collaborative model such as the one in Germany with representation on company boards. That's not how things are in the UK and part of that is down to the Unions themselves.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The reason why it got into that state in the first place was because of the lack of collaboration. To be in management was to be drawn from the upper and middle classes. There was a divide which was rigidly enforced by the managers so the only way for workers to exert influence was through the strike. Management was bad because it was so top down and it eventually led directly to the collapse of British industry.

    The British establishment had choices and could have chosen the German model which is incredibly successful and maintained very low levels of industrial action. They chose not to and eventually they decided that unions had no place in British industry and systematically chose to destroy them. They still have choices but they imagine that lack of workers councils is an advantage. The decline continues.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,329 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    The hole in your analysis is that Labour were in power between 1964-1979 with a gap between 1970-1974. There was plenty of time to reform things and nothing was done. The unions played a significant role in their own downfall. Thatcher did what she did because she had the public behind her. It's the same reason she never touched the NHS.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Unfortunately the Labour party attempted the reforms just before the advent of Maggie. The already militant unions rejected their plans and caused the collapse of the Labour government under general labour unrest. They tried but the pattern of disfunction was already locked in at this stage. Some might say that Maggie was a necessary evil, but her approach went far deeper than simply reforming the unions.

    Let us also not forget that the Labour party is drawn from the same well of public school educated middle class so they had little actual faith in the working class to be partners.

    In final summation the class system has been the undoing of the UK ever since it stopped been an asset in the time of Empire.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,329 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    What I'm taking away from this is that the unions handed Thatcher the cudgel to bludgeon them to oblivion with. 10 years is a lot of time to fix something like this and the unions are very influential within the Labour party, public schoolboys or not.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I would tend to agree, but the other side of the coin was that the management never honestly came to the negotiating table to make a compromise possible.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭yagan


    What are the wages like if you were to transfer to Britain?

    Edit to add, a London wage comes with a London cost of living, not the average for the rest of England.



  • Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    All I can say is unless you are a specialist the UK is a low wage economy.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,329 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Sure but that could have been resolved by a Labour government. There was no shortage of time to do so and, presumably, what was then West Germany would have had sufficiently close ties to the UK for its model and its results to be known.

    If you're a specialist, it's a low wage economy as well. Certain specialities can do well, particularly if they can get good London jobs and work remotely but on the whole, salaries here are pitiful.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    Management was bad because it was so top down and it eventually led directly to the collapse of British industry

    This is only part of the story. The real reason for the collapse of British industry was the disappearance of their tied markets, i.e. the British Empire. Management didn't need to be great under those circumstances, as they had a huge overseas market who didn't have access to competing products. As long as they produced a product, they could sell it. I recall reading somewhere a few years back that cars sold on the Irish market were always of a lower spec. than the same car on the British market. I'd guess the Empire suffered the same way.

    Now, the UK has left the EU and it's decline is continuing. I see this as similar to Irish decline in the 19th century after being subsumed into the UK. We continued to decline after independence (there may have been an element of punishment by the Brits there), and after leaving the EU, Blighty is now finding itself in much the same position; it is being punished, particularly as the EU doesn't want to see any other members leave the club.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,618 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    That punishment from the EU is more a response to British negotiating tactics. The EU doesn't seem to be giving any leeway at all, give an inch and they take a mile.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Can be hard to get a consistent measure but that would seem to reflect a rise in poverty from 1979 to 1985. A big improvement under Blair, which stayed roughly about the same up 2014/15. It would seem to be on the rise since then, policy changes on Social welfare, cost of living crisis etc. Interesting bit on Maggie's time:

    Figures from the European Commission estimated that from 1975 to 85 the number of people living in poverty had doubled in Britain, from just over 3 million to 6.5 million. In 1975, the United Kingdom had fewer people living in poverty than Germany, Italy, Belgium, and Luxembourg. By 1989, Britain had a higher poverty level than each of these four countries. In 1989, 12% of the British population was estimated to be living in poverty, compared with 11.7% in Italy, 8.5% in Germany, 7.9% in Luxembourg, 7.4% in the Netherlands, and 7.2% in Belgium.


    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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