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Journalism and Cycling 2: the difficult second album

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,717 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    The Roads Policing Unit need to get out of their cars.

    They need to get on bikes, buses, trucks (as done by their peers around the world) which all give a birds eye view of drivers using their phones in particular.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54 ✭✭JC 3.14159


    Yeah, I appreciate there are the legal aspects etc.

    But right now in Ireland there have been 2 high profile, tragic crashes with full-time media attention, which is (rightly) sparking some discussion about improving road safety.

    I’ve read (on twitter, possibly? I honestly can’t remember where) REMOVED. But that’s only because I have an interest in road safety, and happen to follow a few accounts where this type of info can pop up. If I was only watching TV or reading a paper, the only (possible) causal factor mentioned is heavy rain in Clonmel.

    A driver crashing with bald tyres or no seat belts is going to be immediately obvious, and non-disputable. Surely publicising this (obvious, minimal) level of information isn’t going to jeopardise any major legal findings? But it could well be the nudge that other drivers need to avoid repeating the same mistakes. And it’s a nudge which is most effective now when this is fresh in everyones’ minds, not in a year’s time when the RSA run their next ‘wear your seatbelts’ ad.

    Instead everything is hidden away and can’t be talked about because it’s insensitive, and the cycle continues.

    Last thing - this is the cycling forum - I think ‘we’ know what safe driving etc look like, because anyone who cycles here learns the difference between safe and unsafe driving very quickly. But the average Irish driver? Not so much. I think they need all the help they can get. Most drivers have no concept of the potential damage a fast moving car can cause. If they did, they’d be terrified and wouldn’t drive close to a pedestrian at anything above walking pace.

    mod note - do not repeat social media rumours about the causes of fatal accidents.

    Post edited by magicbastarder on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭Large bottle small glass


    Take the Clonmel case, you might assume or might hear that car must have been travelling to flip, but being intimately familiar with the location (I wore the leather heels of my father's shoes 31 years ago walking up and down that road in the night of my debs 😄 and have cycled up and down it probably hundreds of times) there is structures at locus which could facilitate a car overturning at low speeds.

    In relation to tyre issues in any case, who establishes that fact? Garda PSV inspector issues report before any court hearing? Does any part have a right of reply or can they get their own motor Engineer to inspect and report?

    What if there is an issue with poor road drainage? What if a private property is discharging water onto road? All that would need investigation and a fair forum to decide on responsibility/liability with a right to appeal.

    A rush to publish prejudices any such rights to fair procedure.

    We know bald tyres are dangerous. We know driving in downpours is Hugh risk. We know young drivers are a problem. We know seat belts work. We know that people drive too fast in housing estates, schools where there are young kids.

    There are endless previous fatal accidents which could be used in any add campaigns for road safety without interfering in due process for current tragedies.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,352 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    folks - just a reminder, please no speculation or repeating of rumours about the causes of recent fatal accidents.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,282 ✭✭✭✭zell12




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 789 ✭✭✭p15574


    Decent article in the Indo with comparisons between London and Dublin cycling. Could have been a little better if he'd included footage of the huge numbers using the cycle lanes in London during rush hour - he must have been there at the weekend.

    ‘Cycling in London showed me how far Irish cities still have to go’: what we can learn from the UK capital’s cycling revolution



  • Posts: 15,362 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,280 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    My route from Hackney to Liverpool St last year had zero cycling infrastructure at all, unless you count the LTN's I cycled through. Much of East London is horrible to cycle in, I find Dublin a lot better at least the routes I frequent. Still a lot to do in London but there has been much improvement and the amount of people on bikes there nowadays is incredible.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,461 ✭✭✭McGrath5


    Caught the tail end of a "Road Safety" segment on the BOC show on Radio One yesterday, not sure who it was but they were talking about the recent deaths on our roads and one of the guests went off on one about escooters and ebike users and how they've "no regard" for the law and they "can do what they like", obviously this went unchallenged.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,744 ✭✭✭Tombo2001


    "I see they've been banned in Paris now" - get ready to hear that one over and over.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    I live in the countryside, where there are no footpaths outside houses, the nearest village (1 pub and 1 tiny village shop) is 2km away and the nearest town (3 pubs, 2 petrol stations, a chipper, centra, butchers, chemist etc) is 5km away. About 500 metres of footpath if I was to walk to the nearest shop in the town. We've gotten to the point, with evolution of cars in terms of size and speed, an increased number of cars as society becomes wealthier, and negligent town planning in terms of lack of alternative transport, local amenities etc., where the only way to exist outside urban centres is to have a car. It's a vicious circle too - the worse the facilities, the more people need cars, the more people use cars, the less people walk or cycle, the emptier the roads are to non-drivers, the less the chance of coming across a walker/ cyclist, the faster people drive, the faster people expect to be allowed to drive, the more intolerant people become of having to slow for walkers/ cyclists, the more hostile the environment for walkers/ cyclists, the less people walk/ cycle, the emptier the roads, the faster the speeds and on and on and on.

    Take the 80kmph speed limit on most country roads - it's far too high in most cases. From experience, 60kmph feels a much more natural speed to travel those roads. There's much less need to brake and accelerate into/ out of corners. Less need to hug the ditches. Less chance of being surprised by another road user. It's the country - should we not expect to have people walking to/ from their houses? Children about? Dogs/ cats crossing roads? People on horses, tractors cutting verges, entering/ leaving fields?

    Where is this need to push speeds to the limit coming from and why are local authorities enabling it by sticking an 80kmph sign on the road? Bearing also in mind that I'm judging this by my car's speedometer, and have been informed on this very forum that if I want to do 80lmph I should really be pointing the needle at 86kmph or thereabouts.

    I think it'll take action by the govt. along the lines of the plastic bag levy/ smoking ban - cut the speed limits on minor roads, hammer home the message through public information campaigns and properly monitor and enforce the limits.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,161 ✭✭✭buffalo


    The amount of say the local authority has in setting speed limits has diminished over recent years. Now they are generally set per Dept of Transport guidelines based on the width of the road, traffic function, etc. Kildare had a review recently, and it was essentially KCC bringing roads that didn't comply with the guidelines into line. Local councillors could object to specific roads, but I don't think it went anywhere in the end.

    See the report at https://www.speedlimits.ie/_files/ugd/971679_1d14f0eefdcc426785d3dd1058a33ae6.pdf

    However, there is a light at the end of the tunnel, as guidelines are currently under review, and we may yet see a default 30km/h limit in built up areas and lower limits outside of that: https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/uknews/review-will-radically-change-mismatch-of-speed-limits-on-irish-roads-says-minister/ar-AA1fTbQ1 🤞



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    Yeah, I used the term 'local authority' as a lazy way of saying whoever has the power almighty vested in them.

    It's not just young lads in Audis either (although driver aggression is probably another factor). My mother is in her 70s... she drives like a lunatic (even while worrying about me cycling and getting killed on the road). The level of detachment with which people view speed and car use is probably off the scale if there was a way of studying and measuring it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,282 ✭✭✭✭zell12


    You can stand at a busy junction and witness/measure it everyday



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,176 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    The 80km/hr speed limit in most cases is just the default for a road that doesn't have M or N status. It basically means "it's 80km/hr here because no-one could be bothered putting a speed limit on it". There was talk a few years ago of doing a national review and actually setting more appropriate speed limits (some were actually too low like former N roads which had been re-designated R due to motorway bypass). I think they may have done a few R roads but not bothered with L roads.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,352 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    it's a mammoth task to send engineers out to every road in the country and reassess them all, surely?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,662 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    They did do it once, as the old mph limit was 60, which was 100kph, which I think reduced with the introduction kph. Simplist would default a reduction in a similar way and then have councils go through a process to increase them. If they wanted to go further they could default L roads lower, than R roads.

    I still think it's really about enforcement. However often (and this isn't commenting on specific incidents) weather and/ or light conditions are reported as potential cause - isn't that really a way of saying inappropriate speed, without putting inappropriate speed in the minds of the public?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    Possibly/ probably. Not directed at your post at all, but its just apathy really, isn't it? I mean, lets all offer hopes and prayers every time there's a headline grabbing tragedy... and then just carry on as before and shrug "sure what can be done?".

    80kmph isn't enshrined in the constitution... with a strike of a pen it can become 60kmph as a default. And then let 'local authorities' apply for derogations back up to 80kmph as deemed appropriate/ inappropriate.

    We need a reality check with our sense of entitlement to speed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,520 ✭✭✭JMcL


    This was always one of my favourites (just outside Ballyhale - 2009 footage as somebody turned the 80km/h sign around in the latest) To think Kilkenny CoCo went to the bother and expense of putting up that sign (admittedly the road it's coming off was the old N9 with 100km/h limit at the time - again inappropriate for long stretches of the route)




  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,999 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    There is also the issue that some seem to think that being at the limit is fine, I have even have Gardai say this to me. If it is not safe to travel at the speed limit, you should be going slower. If the speed limit is 100kmph but the road has a sharp bend, then coming around that corner at 100kmph is illegal and a lot of drivers (and some Gardai unfortunately) believe this is OK.

    I think a strongly targeted side of the road campaign alongside a media campaign where drivers are taken aside on roads where driving at the speed limit is not appropriate are asked on camera, what is an appropriate speed for this stretch of road. Any of them that say up to (or at) the speed limit get whacked in the face with a fish until they give an answer that remotely resembles sense. They are recorded, and they get repeatedly beaten by the fish until an appropriate answer is given. They are then put in TV adverts with a simple phrase such as "this driver is a moron".



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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 42,875 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Yesterday this was tweeted by a UK Roads Policing division...


    Today the UK Independent paper published this...

    Obviously "journalist" Holly Evans didn't read the tweet!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 621 ✭✭✭Cetyl Palmitate


    In defence of the headline, it could be read as the police cannot stop them cycling over the speed limit as the limits do not apply as opposed to being unable to stop them to discuss their behaviour.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    Are those suggesting speed limits be applied to cyclists happy to consider reviewing the speed limits as a whole and applying new limits based on road type and 'vehicle' type. I'd prefer to be hit by a cyclist at 30kmph than a small car at 20kmph.

    Of course they're not. They're crusading against those pesky cyclists looking to ruin the world with their free-wheeling antics. Not even wearing hi-viz Joe!!



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 42,875 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    But they can stop them and did.

    That the speed limit does not apply does not mean that other laws cannot be used to slow them down or stop them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,245 ✭✭✭check_six




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,352 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,381 ✭✭✭cletus




  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,999 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    I used to live beside there, 40kmph would be too fast for a lot of that laneway but I would meet cars flying up it, put in the ditch twice by people coming round the bends at 60+



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    FFS. In fairness, it probably wasn't on National Slow Down day, or National Don't be a D!ck day, so very little the Garda could've done. Could possibly have offered the cyclist a selection of "Thoughts and Prayers"?



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