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A wonderful illustration showing how much public space we’ve handed over to cars

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Comments

  • Posts: 15,801 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I've been out walking and cycling daily in Athlone over the last few years.

    Sometimes I get wet, sometimes I don't.

    Rain is not that big of a deal



  • Posts: 573 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I suppose it comes down to an individuals means and it would appear that the majority of Irish people have the means to put a car on the road in order to get them from A to B quickly and comfortably all while protecting them from the elements.

    It would be a no brainer for most to use public transport if it was quick and convenient as its clearly cheaper than owning a car. Why are so many commuters against having extra money in their back pockets?



  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,271 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    I got caught in the rain once going into the office a few months after I started in my current place. I just left a spare change of clothes and a towel in my desk in case it ever happened again. When I was back in Sligo, where it rains a lot more than Dublin, I used to do the same. Even still I rarely got caught in it and that was when I was walking or cycling to work every day and had to be in a specific times. This is over a period of over 10 years. Same with college and walking home from school. I really think the rain thing is overblown.



  • Posts: 15,801 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It's ok though, the RSA have tweeted a reminder to not kill people on bikes so we're sorted




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 737 ✭✭✭murphthesmurf


    Ignoring the majority of my points isn't "challenging".

    Removing cars from private ownership would undoubtedly put many people out of work and have a not insignificant impact on the economy.

    I'm not arguing against encouraging more people out of their cars through public transport. For instance I may be in favour of a free public transport system. Although the "free" part is a myth as it would be paid for through general taxation.

    I just consider myself as more of a realist. I don't believe we'll convince any meaningful amount of people to stop using cars in favour of bicycles. It pisses down too often and for a large part of the year it's cold and dark.

    Cars aren't going anywhere. What cars you can convince people to give up will be replaced by the growing population. So we will always need to at least maintain our current capacity. So reducing this for cycle Lanes etc will just increase congestion, cause more misery for everyone and increase polution.

    I believe for a truly effective public transport system we'd need to look at places like Japan. I've never been there, but they seem to have an amazing system. 180mph trains that are scheduled almost by the second. But that's never going to happen, as here that would cost billions. Just look at the children's hospital.



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  • Posts: 15,801 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Removing cars from private ownership

    Nobody is advocating for that so.....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 737 ✭✭✭murphthesmurf


    In the cities cyclists are a law onto themselves, I have little sympathy for them. During my day in Dublin last week on the bus and on foot I witnessed no end of cyclists weaving across the road etc. The bus drivers must be driven mad by them. I wouldn't have the patience for that. I avoid Dublin like the plague.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 44,263 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Removing cars from private ownership would undoubtedly put many people out of work and have a not insignificant impact on the economy.

    Who has actually suggested doing removing cars? People against change keep reminding of this proposal but to my knowledge nobody has proposed it!

    I'm not arguing against encouraging more people out of their cars through public transport. For instance I may be in favour of a free public transport system. Although the "free" part is a myth as it would be paid for through general taxation.

    Loads of things are paid for out of general taxation. Like roads and hospitals and education. What's your point?

    Anyhow, cost apparently isn't a major factor in people choosing to use public transport.

    I just consider myself as more of a realist. I don't believe we'll convince any meaningful amount of people to stop using cars in favour of bicycles. It pisses down too often and for a large part of the year it's cold and dark.

    You're a realist? Based on your previous points, I wouldn't have thought so. As for the weather, it isn't as bad as you keep trying to make out. And even if it does rain, so feckin what - carry an umbrella!

    Cars aren't going anywhere. What cars you can convince people to give up will be replaced by the growing population. So we will always need to at least maintain our current capacity. So reducing this for cycle Lanes etc will just increase congestion, cause more misery for everyone and increase polution.

    blah blah blah. Car usage is being discouraged in urban areas through greater encouragement to use both public transport and active travel.

    Within an urban environment, cars are an inefficient means of transport despite the convenience. As for any congestion, this isn't caused by cycle lanes, road signs, traffic lights, trees or the weather. It is caused by people who are choosing to drive their cars and only those people.

    I believe for a truly effective public transport system we'd need to look at places like Japan. I've never been there, but they seem to have an amazing system. 180mph trains that are scheduled almost by the second. But that's never going to happen, as here that would cost billions. Just look at the children's hospital.

    Rail upgrades have been proposed. There are threads on them. However, I agree that we do need more rail transport and it's good that you agree with the underlying thread topic. We have removed most of our rail lines because successive governments followed the belief that car = good and public transport = bad and used this philosophy when it came to allocating funding for both roads and public transport.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 246 ✭✭patmahe


    To me this is very simple, build the infrastructure and people will use it. Look at the uptake in leisure cycling since greenways started cropping up. If you look at places where this has worked (like Amsterdam) you have a well thought out integrated transport system you can even bring your bike on the tram (imagine that on the LUAS at any time of the day), you take so many cars off the road, leaving space for buses, trams etc.

    I think the simple fact is this, when a car is sold there is a lot of tax generated from it through VRT, more tax from motor tax, more tax from fuel etc. why would you kill the goose that's laying golden eggs? You get to tell people you are doing something about the environment by building very cost effective greenways while simply painting white lines on busy roads in city centres (again to be seen to be doing something) while secretly being delighted that people continue to buy cars and fuel (and soon electricity) and you can tell them its their fault that the world is warming up when you haven't given them real tangible alternatives in the first place.

    If we were serious about this someone would be looking at models of what we want to do around the world and coming up with an fully integrated public transport system where people choose to use it because its more convenient than the car and more cost effective, but crucially (and I think this is key) safe and segregated from cars wherever possible.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,465 ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    No. It is my normal commute. I leave the house at 6:30 or 7am every morning.

    There is always an excuse not to - just look at the posts here. Whether you do or not is no skin off my nose but people need to quit with the poor excuses. If they want to drive because they couldn't be arsed or are too lazy then just say that. Nonsense about constant rain or sweaty messes are just excuses and poor ones at that.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 6,515 ✭✭✭CalamariFritti


    I get the argument and yes its all about cars and that's not necessarily a good thing at all times.

    But you can't leave out from the argument what cars did and do for us. The ability to just pop into your vehicle and zip within a few minutes to anywhere. Within a few minutes you're in town 5 miles away and back that would have been a walk or a horse/bicycle ride taking you a few hours. You zip from Waterford to Dublin in a couple of hours. In the old days that would have been a full day or more on the horse cart or whatever.

    Individual transport available to almost everyone was and is a huge game changer for society.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,090 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    it has changed many things for the worst though. broken up communities, the death of small shops, ignoring public transport for a century, urban sprawl, one off housing, needing to own a car to get to work, all of these things are bad for society. not to mention people dying in car crashes every couple of days and pedestrians being run over regularly. owning a car is great and all but urban areas especially should be doing everything to put all other forms of transport first from now on.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,776 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    I live a largely car-free lifestyle. Don't own one, rent occasionally.

    To get to my desk guaranteed for 9am, I aim for an 8am bus. Will need to make it 7:45am from September- December. Which when I think about it is absolutely mad. Colleagues from Co Clare get to work quicker than I do!

    I stick with this approach because I live in the city centre and parking costs a lot and is a lot of hassle. And I've no kids, dogs etc to be running around, so I can afford the time. But for most people life ain't like that. They need the time, and they need individualised routes via doggy-daycare, creche, elderly relatives etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,684 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    If you notice the amount of old cars going around on the road, I see some 2006's and 2008's for instance and that's in Dublin, outside of Dublin there's some 2001's! These cars are worth less than the price of a set of alloy bicycle wheels! I'd say they're barely/minimally insured/tax/nct/maintained... and they're still cheaper than public transport..



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 54,216 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    FWIW very similar arguments have been made for bikes. especially in terms of giving women freedom; look up the origins of the term 'bicycle face' as a reaction of society to women getting a bit too comfortable with the freedom bikes gave them.

    also, to pick up on your 'with a few minutes, be anywhere' comment. in an urban setting, the car will not be as quick as a bike - and similar in many suburban settings too. for example, play with suggested routes and times on google maps getting round the suburbs; and bear in mind that if you do it now, it's mid afternoon halfway through august, which will flatter the figures you'd see for driving (because the roads are relatively quiet), but would have little effect on cycling.

    i just randomly picked a point which turns out to be beside terenure college rugby club, to donnybrook. google maps says it'd take 16 minutes to drive and 15 minutes to cycle; a journey of approx 4.8km based on the shortest suggested route.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,182 ✭✭✭spaceHopper


    This is another merry go a round of pure horse sh1t. Or government don't care about public transport or climate change, they make a noisy buzz but that's it. They are adding segregated cycle lanes near my office, the final finish is sh1t, the drainage is wrong and the surfaces has lots of high and low spots. It couple of years it will be in bits.

    Like it or not we are a car society and that's not going to change. Best you can hope for by investing in public transport is that younger people will postpone getting a car until they have kids themselves buy which time they will end up needing a car.

    I can get the bus to work no problem, but I can't get it home easily, it's either full and doesn't stop Or I'll have to stand most of the way if it stops. I can't depend on it. But I can depend on my car.

    When I was in my 20's I bought a car because I was sick of been let down by the bus and and sick of making excuses for been late for work. I haven't looked back since.



  • Posts: 573 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    For some cycling and public transport is ideal unfortunately it doesn't suit everybody. You find though that these people (especially cyclists) tend to be overly enthusiastic about their modes of transport and generally feel that society should conform to their ideals. You don't generally get car users on here calling for for the elimination of bus lanes, bus stops, cycle lanes, footpaths or pedestrian crossings because they are an inconvenience, the majority of people are aware that everybody has different requirements when it comes to commuting. I have no issue with using public funds to develop infrastructure for greener modes of transport and in fact would encourage it but calling for the elimination of cars from urban areas at the moment is plain stupid when there is still a majority that have no choice due to the location of their home or work place but to use a car to commute.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 18,165 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    I was behind a 95 Carina on the road today.

    Great nick and tipping along grand.

    All cars must have a minimum of 3rd party insurance.

    As for tax pre 08 cars are on the old engine size system so generally paying more. The Carina was a 2 litre so is on €710 pa. Also a lot of older cars are owned by the less well off and they end up paying even more by taxing for 3 or 6 months.

    The NCT has weeded out most of the bangers.

    Of course the purchase price and depreciation are much lower and once the car goes over 30 years you go to €56 pa motor tax.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,441 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/dr-catherine-conlon-our-cities-can-lead-the-way-on-bike-friendliness-and-why-such-a-model-makes-sense/a1560318904.html

    Dr Catherine Conlon: Our cities can lead the way on bike-friendliness – and why such a model makes sense



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 54,216 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    all cars must have a minimum of 3rd party insurance - yet something like 8% of cars don't, according to the MIBI. again, it's back to a lax attitude to policing road laws. a lot of issues people experience in relation to how cars are driven (and how they take up public space) would be solved if road traffic law was actually enforced.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,441 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    I’m at just over 9000klm for commuting by bike in 2023. If I keep going at this rate I’ll reach 14,000klm in total. I haven’t worn rain gear so far this year.

    how do you convince people to leave their car at home and commute by bike? Answer is you don’t! Most already know that commuting by car (in Dublin anyway) is a nightmare! It’s not too bad at the moment but once the school runs return in September it will be a nightmare once again!



  • Posts: 573 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    That's only an opinion piece by a cycling enthusiast, its on par with asking the top gear lads to write on article on why we should make cites more car friendly...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,441 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    This whole tread is just people’s opinions!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,441 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    A friend of mine cycled home from work last weekend because the roads were flooded! (He didn’t want to risk driving through floodwaters!) A wise decision. He got home and his car was not damaged.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,684 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    If you only have to pay a bit of tax and basic 3rd party insurance when the old car owes you nothing then it's cheaper than Public transport, or replacing stolen bicycles! :-D



  • Posts: 573 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Thats true.

    Most links are generally to supporting info rather than opinion pieces I just wanted to highlight that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,786 ✭✭✭DownByTheGarden


    Where to you live? Its been raining at least 2 thirds of the last 50 days in Dublin. :) Sure havent we just had the wettest July on record?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 54,216 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    raining two thirds of the days is not equivalent to it raining two thirds of the time.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 54,216 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    people seem to misunderstand. the primary goal of most cyclists is to be able to cycle safely. if reducing car usage is a secondary effect of that, so be it. in an urban environment, being able to cycle from A to B should be a more basic goal than being able to drive from A to B, because it's more universally accessible a mode of transport. if my 12 year old nephew wants to cycle to school, i don't care all that much if his neighbour is driven or not; my primary wish is that he is able to cycle to school safely.

    and car users do call for the elimination of obstacles which they think get in their way. by god they do. there was far more fuss from motorists over the provision of cycle lanes on griffith avenue than there was from cyclists who were campaigning for that provision. people complain about speed bumps. they complain about traffic lights and how they would change the cycle. the difference between (many) motorists and (many) cyclists is that motorists complain about the infrastructure that is there and cyclists complain about the infrastructure that isn't there (often functionally not there even though it might exist on paper).

    unless you're able to manufacture land, provision of cycling infrastructure usually encroaches onto road space, and that's the root of the issue you seem to be complaining about. it's far easier to deny someone something they never had, than it is to take some of it back after it's been given to them. that's the rub.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,786 ✭✭✭DownByTheGarden


    In the company I was working for we had undergorund secure bike racks with a security guard and security barriers. Sometimes I even found it hard getting in and out of there on the bike it was so secure. Last year I went down after work to cycle home and my boardman was gone. Saw the security cameras and 2 scumbags, didnt even bother with hoods just walked up and helped themselves to 2 bikes and off they went, never to be seen again. The speed they went through my very expensive well reviewed lock at makes me wonder what the point of ever buying it was.

    Id hate to see less secure bike racks.



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