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2023 Retrofit Quote

  • 16-01-2023 4:51pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 5


    Hi All,

    First post so shout if I'm in the wrong place, but wanted to bounce what I'm deeming a ludicrous quote from a very well known energy provider for a full retrofit.

    They sent a fella out to do the assessment on our recently purchased 110sqm detached house. We said we'd brave a winter and begin looking into energy upgrade bits, hence the appointment.

    The house has a F BER rating and it's a dormer bungalow. Without getting into too much detail, the quote I received seem bananas and leaves me thinking I could inefficiently blast the heating through the next 25-30 winters and still wouldn't spend the same amount.

    It was a whopping 134,000 euro AFTER grants. The external insulation alone was circa 80k! Biggest alarm bell being the attic insulation quote of 9k - sure I could do this for a small fraction myself or outsource it for 2k max I would have thought.

    I've read plenty to suggest the whole SEAI grant scheme is just lining approved supplier pockets, but this was a jaw dropping amount for me process. Would really appreciate advice from anyone else who has gone down the path recently, the do's, the don't, the cowboys, etc.

    Cheers!



«1

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 398 ✭✭Biker1


    While the price for the external insulation seems way over the top, 9k to insulate and airtight a dormer attic is far from expensive.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 261 ✭✭society4


    My guesstimate is

    ext insulation 35-40k

    air to water pump - 16k

    solar - 12k

    mech ventilation - 4.5k

    Windows/doors - 20k

    attic insulation -3k

    90k - grants (approx 17k) = 73k


    so how are they coming up with 134k?



  • Registered Users Posts: 5 Niall2188


    Is insulating a dormer considerably more than say a regular two story detached? Would that be down to the fact there is a considerably larger roof to insulate? As mentioned, I'm a rookie in this area but all my research has pointed to a fraction of that price but interested to get your take on it. Cheers



  • Registered Users Posts: 5 Niall2188


    That's much easier on the eye alright. External insulation still seems very high but maybe the fact its a dormer is driving it up?

    I've heard of many cases of people getting quotes off vendors who are NOT SEAI approved and them coming in way cheaper than the ones who are approved by them. Are we being taken for a ride?

    Sounds like my best bet is to do it bit by bit and manage the grant process where applicable myself.

    Thanks for this!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,583 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    It's very difficult to do a good job on a dormer airtightness without really pulling down finishes internally.

    I won't comment on price as we don't know what they were quoting for but if your property is only 110 sqm, your 1st floor is likely only 40 to 50 sqm so not a huge area.

    In general though, the retrofit grants scheme is a job and is likely pouring cash directly I to the pockets of these approved 1 stop shop companies. At a minimum, prices have inflated by the total grant amount from what I have seen. It's actually obscene and government if right minded should be shutting down this format of funding. Instead, they are pushing on with a poorly thought out scheme and burning funds.

    As usual, it's a great scheme to put public money into private hands.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,583 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    From you figures (which you would imagine are reasonable), their pricing strategy would appear to be to take the after grant price and double it plus swallow up the grant too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 261 ✭✭society4


    Yea looks like that..scandalous price gouging….those one stop shops are a joke too….2k to project manage it !!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 444 ✭✭WacoKid


    When I enquired and got a quote last year i found:

    1. The quote was outragous fro the One Stop Shops. IIRC the project management charge alone on my quote was 8k.
    2. They just really put you in touch with a builder and process your grants up front.
    3. It was totally inflexible if you wanted additional non-grant work done at the same time (i.e. extension).
    4. I was offered the services directly from the company behind the OOS quote when I said I was not proceeding.

    In summary, at time of enquiry it had not been thought through and it was really SEAI just transfering all the admin externally, and letting the providers quote as they please.

    I will pay now for the works upfront, get the certificates, and submit myself. Additional effort maybe but I feel it gives me better control. Who's to say the OOS effort would be easier anyway!

    My opinion is OOS is for people who do not have the money upfront to do the work and then claim afterwords. It is more targeted at people who want to upgrade but do not have the finances to cover the work upfront. The OOS scheme will allow you get the grants before the work commences so you only ever pay the difference.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,873 ✭✭✭MicktheMan


    From experience, when it comes to this type of issue I believe the 80/20 rule is applicable to most cases.

    My advice is to first live in your (new) house for at least all four seasons and learn how the house functions during the different seasons and different types of weather. Use this time also to learn about the various forms of heat loss (hint; there are 3, but insulation only really addresses 1) and also recognise that dormer bungalows suffer a particular issue which insulation alone generally does not address and needs to be understood properly to achieve a decent end result.

    Were you home when the house was assessed and was an air tight test done as part of this assessment? If so, do you know the result?



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,145 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    2k is less than ~40hrs Project management when company overheads and tax, travel etc is accounted for. OP can you provide the full details of the quote? (Minus any company name/details) thanks



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5 Niall2188


    I’ve attached the breakdown of the quote for those interested:




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 261 ✭✭society4


    78k for ext insulation looks extremely steep…would have thought 45k max…..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 261 ✭✭society4


    Did you get any other quotes that were more reasonable?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1 AcousticSteve


    Just jumping in here as I recently had an assessment carried out after around 3 months of researching. The OSS that carried it out quoted a desktop estimate of €102k after grants (€19.1k worth of grants). Another OSS quoted based on the same report came back as €58k after grants (€22.4k worth of grants). How can this be? It’s all based on the same report!

    it’s also worth noting the first one missed the fact the house has NO heating system, pipework or radiators, while I advised the second of this, they quoted accordingly and still lower.

    Spoke to a different OSS who refused to quote as they wanted to carry the assessment out themselves (even though the reports are standardised purely for the purpose of each OSS being able to accept and quote) and another wanted €100 just for a desktop estimate because they didn’t carry out the assessment.

    Another 2 still haven’t been in touch since I queried initially in early January and the rest apparently done cover my area yet even though it states on the SEAI website they do

    It’s an absolute joke to be fair. And to compare with OP mine is a 240m2 dormer built 2005. (Only in it a year) that’s an outrageous variance in pricing. Needless to say I’ll be in touch with SEAI to try get some clarification on this.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,406 ✭✭✭1874


    Dormer bungalows suffer what? particular issue that insulation doesn't address? Is due to the dormers you are referring to,Id have thought if adequately insulated any property would perform the same as most other designs? I'm curious as to what it is?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,873 ✭✭✭MicktheMan


    Air tightness or more particularly, the lack of it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,376 ✭✭✭jack of all


    As regards dormers- air tightness is difficult to address due to all the penetrations and awkward junctions, requiring extra taping and extra care. Not to mention roof ventilation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,406 ✭✭✭1874


    OK, Well yes, more difficult for sure but not impossible. I think it depends on how deep a retrofit may be that will determine how difficult it would be to do. I've a (concrete block 2 leaves) dormer bungalow and I intend on doing a retrofit so I was wondering if there was something I hadnt considered. ,I've done a U value calculation and I wouldnt have enough rafter depth for insulation value I want. I'm thinking I either need aerogel material or possibly remove tiles/felt, beef up the rafter, integrate airtightlayer, insulate and fit a breathable membrane and tiles. Not sure yet where to get an appropriate structural engineer to ensure it will be structurally sound and to ensure a design plan is followed,or even how much it would cost,but Id plan to integrate airtightness if that work goes ahead. I've been told a doc called SR54 recommends cavity insulation if doing EWI,but calculating temps doesn't suggest there would be a risk,Id get it done for other reasons,potential for convection currents in the space.

    Regarding EWI I'm thinking of getting certified to install a specific system,not sure how it works out to get grants if doing own house or initial jobs elsewhere,did a course in Ireland,it's very much imo attention to detail. Given the costs, I think it could be cost effective for a person to do if they have certain skills,or hire individual trades to do certain taks. Id do base coats over EWI, but Id prefer get a plasterer to do the finish.

    One concern I have is insulated (over) cills don't seem to integrate into an EWI system/windows like existing cills. They appear to be butted up to Windows with expanding foam tape, I'm not convinced this will be effective for draining driven rain in the longterm, Id rather a replacement new/performance window fitted in a traditional manner on top of an insulated cill? Any opinions or links to insulated cills or fitment to permit drainage of water?

    If anyone can point me to the right profession for structural roof design, please do.

    regarding the OP, I understand there are different types of airtight membranes I plan to do my own,but some appear to diffuse water vapour back into a room rather than just repel it,but I think calculated EWI and MVHR would eliminate water vapour related problems, the structure materials would point to the type of insulation and airtightness.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 120 ✭✭hydrus21


    I am also dubious about the over-cill design exposed conditions.

    A better job would be solid cills like concrere but made of styrene ( i think ).

    Google "passive cills" .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 120 ✭✭hydrus21


    in

    concrete



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2 Saggart2015


    Hi, we are in similar position- just received quote from OSS and are completely deflated!!

    Net cost €118,500

    Grants €21,900

    Estimated cost from OSS website was €66k net

    We have also submitted an application for planning for an extension but the above quote doesn’t include any of the demolition/extension works.

    Interested to hear of anyone has successfully applied for grants themselves and is it worth the extra work?!

    Any other advise greatly appreciated.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 261 ✭✭society4


    What’s included in the quote..ext insulation, air to water pump, new windows?



  • Registered Users Posts: 142 ✭✭Jaymacc


    This looks more like it. What about floor insulation? Take down / block up chimneys? Install log burning stove for times when the power is out? I would suggest they avoid external insulation and go with insulation boards on the inside. It would give a nice finish and be far cheaper. If you want to have a better BER cert then you will need proof of the works so talk to BER assessor to see what they recognise. Some are decent and will do visual checks others will want certs for everything. Best of luck.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,020 ✭✭✭enricoh


    Get a plasterer to insulate the walls and insulation guy to do the attic. Leave the grants to the eejits that convince themselves they saved 20k!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 261 ✭✭society4


    If you insulate inside only can you still get an air to water pump…..I have a concrete floor and not keen on having it dug up…is there any alternative ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2 Saggart2015


    Yes, pump and new windows (€26k)!!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 261 ✭✭society4


    Got a quote of 300k to retrofit a detached house in south dublin (not including grants)/no ext wrap just internal dry lining…anyone think that is a bit high or had similar quotes or less….



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 321 ✭✭kevgaa


    Initial reaction would be thats very high but unless you can give a rough breakdown of the costs, size of house etc its hard to tell.

    Rough rule of thumb was 1500 a square metre for retrofit but that was a while ago so not sure has it gone up or down. I would expect it come down.

    Can you provide a rough breakdown of the costs?

    Is it via a one stop shop or an independent contractor?

    Have you only one quote or multiple?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 261 ✭✭society4


    One stop shop - 130sqm house

    2 new bathrooms

    new kitchen.island

    dry lining/insulation

    flooring

    PV panels - 8

    rewire

    replumb air to water

    new windows/composite door aluclad


    only 1 quote so far….thinking of waiting until prices drop a bit….so expensive !!



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 321 ✭✭kevgaa


    Hi,

    just wondering if anyone has got any recent quotes for work retrofit or extensions.

    Im currently finalising plans for renovation of existing 1960’s house in south county Dublin but seriously worried it will blow the budget..

    renovation of 4 bed semi circa 120sq metre, Looking at full renovation new windows doors, attic insulation, external wrap, air to water under floor heating full rewire and replumb etc

    demolish garage build 2 story extension to front 40sq metre

    kitchen extension out back 30sq metre single story extension

    any idea of what ballpark will be?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 261 ✭✭society4


    You won’t get much change out of 400-450k ….



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 321 ✭✭kevgaa


    Yeah that is my fear rough calculations I’m going with are

    70sq metres by 3k =210k

    120sq metres by 1.5k = 180k

    total 390-400k


    that’s over my budget so will need to pair things back I reckon before planning. My view is get structure and builders finish then complete out what we can with the rest of the budget but wife will have a different opinion 😱 Budget is all cash which may help on the finish side of things I hope.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 444 ✭✭WacoKid


    I'm currently out for quotes with 7 builders for:

    Renovate as above.

    Extend hip roof over garage and attic conversion (non-habitable).

    Kitchen extension as above.


    I'd expect quotes to be getting near €400k incl. VAT. Got a quote in Jan '23 for €340k excl. VAT, and labour nor prices have gone down since. Will know more early Aug.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4 Retrofitlou


    Hi

    Im in the middle of the retrofit. Ive a 80m2 terrace house and its costings ~56k. Im nearly done but I need to block up my chimney to ensure I get the grant for the Heat Pump - "Please Note: In order to be eligible for the Heat Pump Grant you must arrange for your chimney to be permanently blocked. This is not a service SSE can provide however failure to do so may result in the grant not being paid."

    My question is (and I maybe on the wrong thread) is have anyone else done this as part of their retrofit? I asked the SEAI for specs on how to do this at they have me this. We're unsure the best way to block the flues at the attic. Apparently temporary measures are not acceptable. Any advice welcome!




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 444 ✭✭WacoKid


    Couple of quotes in and comparing to a Jan '23 quote they are not any cheaper. If anything more expensive 🙁



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 321 ✭✭kevgaa


    yeah from what I can see there is still a lot of demand for work so while that exists it will keep prices high. The other side is labour costs are still a big piece of the quote and that is getting more expensive.


    What are the quotes coming in at per sq metre for the retrofit and new build. I'm waiting for a few quotes back but hoping its under 3k for new build and 1500 for retrofit.

    regards

    Kev



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 444 ✭✭WacoKid


    The quote against my Bill of Quantities is hard to differentiate between the new build and retrofit asks as I have both within. If I progress to quote reviews with my QS hopefully I can determine then.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,994 ✭✭✭c.p.w.g.w




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 321 ✭✭kevgaa


    Got first quote back basically looking at the following work

    1). knock kitchen into dining room and add 30sqm single story extension

    2). knock garage and build 2 story extension for downstairs bedroom with en-suite and the same upstairs

    3). retrofit to 120sqm house

    4). rewire and replumb

    breakdown of costs are ex vat

    single story extension 70k

    2 story extension 106k

    alterations to existing building 38k

    siteworks 21k

    mechanical + electrical installations 51k

    preliminaries + insurance 35k

    basically €360 k for a builders finish as nothing in the quote for kitchen, tiling, wardrobes, painting and decorating,

    I know it’s south county Dublin but quote is just crazy or am I missing something before we go back to the drawing board.



  • Registered Users Posts: 425 ✭✭billy_beckham


    323k by my maths?

    Still obscene granted



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 321 ✭✭kevgaa


    That lovely thing called VAT had to be added 😱



  • Registered Users Posts: 425 ✭✭billy_beckham


    Sheeeeeet!!

    Terrible time to be trying to get anything construction related done...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,193 ✭✭✭Royale with Cheese


    I was sale agreed on a 1960s semi d in South Dublin that sounds quite similar. It was around 110m2 and in bad nick, needed a full refurb and we wanted to knock the shítty garage conversion and build a two story extension to the side as well as an extension to the rear. I had a preliminary meeting with an architect who had done that exact job on the house behind in 2018 and he told us current costs were €4000-5000 a square metre to build and about 80% of that to retrofit. We had a €450k budget and pretty much all of that by his estimates would have gone on refurbing the existing building only, absolutely nothing leftover for any kind of extension.

    We bowed out of the purchase, he was basically telling us it's a bubble and costs should come back down soon because he's seeing a lot of jobs go out to tender and not go any further due to exorbitant quotes coming back. Still far too much uncertainty for us to go ahead and sign contracts not knowing if we'd be able to afford to do what we wanted to the house.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4 Retrofitlou


    Afraid not. Mid terrace house. Chimney is definitely staying!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 321 ✭✭kevgaa


    HI Folks,

    Anyone got any quotes for work back recently. I'm early days in the process but few quotes I got back are still very high and no sign of them getting any cheaper..

    I was hoping for ball park of 3k a sq metre for new build and 1500 for retrofit but not seeing that just yet..

    regards

    Kev



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 444 ✭✭WacoKid


    €350k in Jan, €390k in Jul, €370k in Aug from different builders against the same BoQ. Waiting on 2 other to submit quotes in next 2 weeks.



  • Registered Users Posts: 171 ✭✭thewiseowl12


    Not wishing to sound negative about the one stop shop scheme but it appears to be a complete scam.

    Signed up for report 2022 and a company (who also are a big provider of green residential electricity…) quoted me €250 per sqm for external wall insulation (advised to get good carpets instead of insulating suspended timber floors!)

    I balked and they returned this year to provide an updated quote of 247 per sqm before grant of 6k (41k total)

    Meanwhile, I got quoted from other seai registered contractors and they were respectively 35k before grant and 25k before grant, or 120 a sqm.

    that one stop shop is lining pockets.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 321 ✭✭kevgaa


    Hi Folks,

    Quote back for the following

    1). knock kitchen into dining room and add 30sqm single story extension

    2). knock garage and build 2 story extension for downstairs bedroom with en-suite and the same upstairs

    3). retrofit to 120sqm house

    4). rewire and replumb

    Plumbing cost below is upgrade Gas boiler and only future proof for Heat pump and solar.

    What are peoples views as it blew up my expectation of  3k a sq metre for new build and 1500 for retrofit

    Another builder just came back with 400k but no bill of quantities..





  • Registered Users Posts: 494 ✭✭Aph2016


    Well this thread is eye opening, guess we'll be holding off until prices start coming down.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,618 ✭✭✭Ideo


    there are a lot of PC sums in that for near half a mil, no? costs though, they are out of control. how can people afford on top of another half a mil (minimum) for SCD



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