Advertisement
Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/.
https://www.boards.ie/group/1878-subscribers-forum

Private Group for paid up members of Boards.ie. Join the club.
Hi all, please see this major site announcement: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058427594/boards-ie-2026

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

18308318338358361851

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,083 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Yes, it is more odious. Not even close, and not really comparable tbh.

    I didn't particularly agree with it, but Lowe, JGP, Stander, Aki, Payne, Strauss, Kleyn, Roux, Reidy were all grown men and professional rugby players when they made their decisions to move.

    NZ are targeting 13 & 14 year old kids from very poor countries to leave home purely to bolster their stocks of rugby players.

    I really don't see them as similar problems.

    But again, it's something that helps tier 1 countries and hurts only a small subset of tier 2, so not only will nothing change but no one will even discuss it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    I'm not sure it's no interest in developing more that the situation has gone on so long and become so dire that it would take a serious amount of investment and a full generation before we'd see the proper benefits of it. Rugby is punching above its weight in Scotland in terms of the results on the field both at senior test level and for Glasgow/Edinburgh. I doubt they have the funds available needed to really overhaul their development and structures.

    If we look at their U20 team, the players simply aren't there and that is something that needs to be addressed when these lads are 12-14 years old. Hopefully they are trying to address it behind the scenes but, right now, things are going from bad to worse for them at underage level. Their results in the U20 6N in recent years are eye watering.

    2017: 5th (beat Italy in Scotland)

    2018: Wooden Spoon

    2019: Wooden Spoon

    2020: Abandoned

    2021: Wooden Spoon

    2022: Wooden Spoon (had 40 put on them that summer by Georgia)

    2023: Somehow didn't get the Wooden Spoon as they beat Wales despite having 40 put on them in Glasgow by Italy and 80 by Ireland. Went on to lose to Uruguay in the World Rugby Trophy and, whilst they beat Zimbabwe, they conceded 33 to them.

    The game is in a bad way in Scotland. It appears to be run in a far more pragmatic way from a financial perspective but I wonder is part of that refusing to spend any money on anything outside of senior men's rugby.

    As long as they can pick up established pros from other countries who can supplement their professional game and keep it above water, they're going to keep doing it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,779 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    It doesn’t matter how good Healy has been in the last 6 months though. It matters how good he was back in October 2022. There was almost no talk at all of him missing out on the 2022 6Ns squad or the tour to NZ. Same for the Autumn Internationals. His form picked up after he decided to leave. But by then it was too late as he was leaving.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    This seems to be totally overlooked by many (and more likely deliberately ignored by some).

    If Healy was remaining in Ireland, I'd 100% back him to be in the Irish squad currently based on his showings from the SA A game onwards in November. But he hadn't shown anything close to that level of performance and consistency previously. Even in the early games of the season, he was very much a contributing part of the misfiring team that was struggling.

    He got his season together from November onwards. He announced he was moving to Scotland in the first week of January. One would assume that the talks on the move were already well advanced in November/December.

    All the best to him, he's made a ballsy move and I've no doubt he's going to enjoy far more international exposure and probably better financial rewards overall as a result.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,755 ✭✭✭ersatz


    SRU's income seems around stg65m (2022) while IRFU's is around e85m (2021), so a lot more but the SRU still has a lot of income to manage the game. It's got to be more than just a lack of money.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38 easymoneysnipa


    Good form in 2021 when Ireland were capping AIL replacement level players like Harry Byrne at 10. Lotta shyster talk about 2022 going around.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭ZookeeperDub


    Ireland had a bonus try in 20 mins wasn't it? game was over before a ball was kicked



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,017 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Most of this is fair but I am skeptical of this tbh:

    If Healy was remaining in Ireland, I'd 100% back him to be in the Irish squad currently

    In any case, I think there are others who can feel more hard done by than Healy, but my question on the following would be:

    he hadn't shown anything close to that level of performance and consistency previously.

    Did the alternatives that were getting called into camp? I’m not sure they did either. RB did. But I’m not sure we can say the same of HB or Frawley? (Particularly at 10 for the latter, obviously).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,323 ✭✭✭TRC10


    One good game against the Scarlets is not "good form"



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,905 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I'll never understand the Frawley thing, but I think its fair to say that the absolute most hard done by player not to be called back into the squad is Billie Burns and not Healy.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    To clarify, I personally would back him to be brought into the squad i.e. deserving of inclusion. Whether he would be included is another story.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    I think Burns has correctly fallen off the radar entirely after his last season but he was playing some really nice stuff in 2021/22 and was completely frozen out of the set up which I thought was harsh.

    I can only assume that the Irish coaching team had made their minds up entirely about him but it was unusual to see just how far he fell so quickly. Jack Carty is a similar scenario. I don't think either deserve to be anywhere near an Irish 23 now but it's surprising that, given our merry go round and depth at 10, they were both unceremoniously dumped from fairly high places. Burns started against France in the 2021 6N. He got a sub appearance that summer against Japan and has never been in an Irish squad since.



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 36,495 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    I admire their pragmatism. If they went full-bore financing a game that's not viable they'd be worse off than Wales in no time. When the choice is between having a few imports every year and having no team or finishing a distant last every year, it's an easy decision.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,905 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I also find the the complete turnaround on RB fairly bizarre.

    Safe to say, while the coaching team clearly know what they are doing, the handling of the fly half position is not something I've really understood.



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 36,495 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    For me the Ross Byrne thing was just a case of 'we have 4 years to find a new 10, we'll go in hard on Carbery as the best talent and give a few others a bit of time just in case'. Then the closer we got to the WC, the less Carbery looked like a solution, the less exposure anyone else had and the less it looked like the whole thing would pan out the way they hoped so they pivoted to 'guy who is fine but won't light the place up' while giving Crowley as much chance as possible to get up to speed.

    I think it had to be done; I wouldn't fault them for doing it and commend them for not going all sunk-cost on JC and being able to bring back in a player who's been solid throughout.

    I never thought Harry Byrne looked remotely like an international 10, injuries notwithstanding. But I accept that they have far more insight into the player than I ever will. Burns is in a similar mould to Ross Byrne and they could just have easily brought him back in. Familiarity with the rest of the squad through playing with a more successful side maybe swings it in RB's favour.

    Carty? Sorry, just no. Not the first cousin of an Ireland FH for me and I don't really understand why other 10s haven't been pushed to Connacht. I know Healy didn't want to play for another Irish province but he could have taken the OH jersey there and been at least in the conversation for an Ireland cap.



  • Posts: 12,836 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Burns not kicking at club level was always going to be a big factor against him



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,083 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    I think Ross Byrne is a great example of how some guys grab their chances more than others. He got dropped into the squad at short notice, from waaay back in the field, and he obviously showed the coaches something that they really liked, and continued to do so for the 6N. Plenty of other guys have had these sort of chances and haven't seized them like he did, so he's doing something right.

    If Carbery or Frawley had been fit for the Australia game, Byrne wouldn't have got that chance and maybe wouldn't have been in the Six Nations either, so a lot of it is down to circumstances.

    Hard to see RB being the long-term successor though, but he'll only be 32 come the next RWC so it's not out of the question if no-one else steps up (but let's hope it doesn't come to that).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,372 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Players will have their names printed on their jerseys for this weekend's game.

    Some like the tradition of nameless jerseys, I like the idea of the change.




  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,351 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    I'm a fan of it. It makes it easy for more casual fans who don't know all the players to figure out who they are without having to ask someone or check the team sheet. I wish they would all do it because while I know most of the Irish players I wouldn't know most of the other nations players and same with the club rugby as I don't watch it much.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,323 ✭✭✭TRC10


    No issues with this. What I would be against is squad numbers like football, like players being assigned numbers 1-33 for an entire campaign. I hope rugby doesn't go down that road



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 336 ✭✭Rugbymad2020


    27F599CB-ECCD-4E29-A6CB-41E61F81D270.png

    So looks like he was part of WC plans



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,779 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    He wasn’t playing that well in 2021. He was decent but no more. And 2022 is especially relevant to decisions made in, well, 2022.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,779 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    The thing about Frawley was that he was brought to NZ as a centre and had to fill in for Harry Byrne when injured. Whatever he did in NZ in that role is what got him into Farrells good books, not anything we saw him do.

    Harry Byrne was a big prospect and had a lot of potential. Remember Leinster we’re looking to start him in the HEC before he got his first official call-up. I’d say himself and Crowley are pretty comparable in terms of how Farrell treated them. Byrne had been in a few camps as an extra over the course of a season or so based on his potential. Again, he showed enough for Farrell to think he might have a future and given our situation at 10 we needed that. Injury and the impact that has had on his confidence have screwed all of that up.



  • Hosted Moderators Posts: 9,576 ✭✭✭fitz


    I think that's pretty much spot on. I also think that the way the team has developed over the last couple of years has made us less dependent on Sexton at 10. With the way our game plan and structure has worked the last 2 years, bringing Byrne back in was an easier decision to make I'd say.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,083 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    looks like he was part of WC plans

    It's literally the exact opposite of that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,779 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Ross has also done a good job in those appearances he’s had. He has absolutely paid back the faith the coaches placed in him.



  • Hosted Moderators Posts: 9,576 ✭✭✭fitz


    Totally agree. I just think the success we've had moving away from a game that was more reliant on one of the world's best players being at 10 also helped open the door for him to get that opportunity. He grabbed it with both hands.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,986 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    v ITA Sat 8pm. Team announced Thursday

    Hope Crowley starts v Italy and Samoa.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,017 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    And that's all fine, but if Healy's lack of performance and consistency is going to be mentioned, it seems to me that applies to HB and Frawley too.

    And in particular, with regards the Frawley situation (and even Jake Flannery getting time at 10 in the EI tour), I can absolutely understand why Healy may feel hard done by.



  • Advertisement
  • Posts: 20,606 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Very much looking forward to the match this weekend. Team selection should be interesting, hard to guess but I think we'll see a strong enough 23.



Advertisement
Advertisement