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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,755 ✭✭✭ersatz


    Munster fans will remember how SA crashed before the last WC as it caused them to lose their coach. SA were a mess and going into the competition many people thought it would catch up with them,, as Aloof makes clear above.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,281 ✭✭✭Ardillaun


    Rugby semi-finalists have proved harder than soccer to change at the World Cup level - a more predictable game with fewer teams to choose from - but there will be change eventually. Anyway, we could play better this time and still go out early because of the draw, something we’ll have a hard time explaining to the rugbyphobes. In defence of Argentina, I imagine they must get much less time together as a team than we do given that many of our players belong to one province? Surely, this would tend to give us better results between World Cups?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,281 ✭✭✭Ardillaun


    They look to be peaking at the right time. And with that tip I have sunk their chances.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,122 ✭✭✭Shehal


    They were a mess 2 years out from the RWC, going into the RWC they certainly weren't a mess. In 2018 they were nominated for team on the year (only 3 teams are nominated) and in 2019 going into the RWC they won the rugby championship. The one positive from the first half of the WC cycle was many Bok players got blooded such as De Klerk, Marx, Steph du Toit, Am, Kitshoff etc. which helped down the road as these players were already up to speed with test level by the time Erasmus came in. In 2019 they were in a much better spot going into the RWC as they were more consistent, in better form and their squad was just pushing the average age profile of most RWC champions (their squad on average was 1 month older than the Irish squad and the Irish squad was considered old) and 4 years on a lot of those players are still there and most aren't as good as they were back then and most of the replaced ones haven't been replaced with a player of similar quality.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭ZookeeperDub


    That was 2 years out. Mostly down to selection policies etc

    As I said 2 years later they won the Rugby Championship and no longer a mess. They had a SA game plan and the cattle to play it. I don't know anyone who said they entered the last World cup as "no hopers"

    If this is coming from your mate who is a student of the game, I think he might need to go back studying :-) joke so please tale no offense



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,691 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right




  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,377 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    where do you view their biggest weakness? or is it simply down to coaching?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,691 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    I don't think he said Aus, RSA and NZ were the 3 best teams but were 3 of the best teams in the world. Which I think is a fair call.

    I can't see the Boks winning this RWC. I don't think they have the consistency or depth to win 3 tough knock out matches in a row on top of coming through a tough group. I feel the same about the ABs.

    People pointing out that RSA won the Rugby Championship prior to the 2019 RWC, I'm pretty sure the ABs didn't win the RC in 2011 and 15. But did in 2003 and 07.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,691 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    Front row, loose forwards, 10, back 3 and head coach. I don't think our props are good enough and in the other 3 areas, I don't think we have settled on our right combinations.



  • Administrators Posts: 56,559 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Irish fans really do have this misty eyed view of Joe Schmidt.

    If Joe Schmidt gets his fingerprints all over them and has the ABs playing like his Ireland team I'd be happy enough. We'd have a better chance of beating them if they played Schmidt rugby.



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  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,377 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    10? do you not think mounga is good enough to steer the ship? hes my 10 all day.

    i agree on the props (id include all the front row). it looks like theyve settled at this stage but i dont think the quality is there compared to ireland and france.

    Cane, while playing better this year than previous, isnt good enough, in my onion to be on the team, never mind captaining. Not mobile enough to play the game they seem to want to play these days. Papalii at 7, frizell at 6 and savea at 8 is a good back row. I like jacobsen as the bench option.

    head coach is an issue, but at least in this years TRC theres a semblance of a game plan. i still fancy france in the first game though.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 929 ✭✭✭Mr Disco


    Indeed. Schmidt-ball became utterly predictable and disastrous for Ireland in the last World Cup and 6 nationals when Schmidt was at the helm.



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,377 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    schmidth has ireland playing possession based rugby because he felt he didnt have the time to get all the players playing the passing / power play style that he employed at leinster. it was low risk rugby but did reap high rewards until his final year.

    schmidth however shouldn't be reduced to just being a coach who can play low risk possession based rugby (his years at leinster show this). While its impossible to say exactly what the upturn in NZs form this year has been down to, it would be difficult not to see schmidths stamp on it. Theres a high degree of precision needed, high skill level and complete concentration on the small details. Yet you wouldn't describe how NZ are playing currently as "low risk" or "predictable"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,691 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    I think Mouaga is the right choice at 10 but I could see Foster tinkering with DMac or BB there if the ABs lose a game. They should be in match back up, not starters.

    I think the hookers are good enough but I'd like to see Aumua there instead of either Taylor or Coles. Probably Taylor because Coles is such a pest.

    100% agree with all you said about the loosies.

    I think Schmidt has definitely improved the side and isn't looking to have them play like he had Ireland play. He is obviously going to place a big emphasis on accuracy and discipline, which is needed. However the skillset that the kiwi players have is higher than what Irish players had during his tenure so the team can play a different style. As was mentioned, more like Leinster than Ireland as they don't have to work on basic skills. Hope that makes sense.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭ZookeeperDub


    Why would Joe do that?

    He didn't think the Irish players had the handling skills and didn't have the time with them that he did with Leinster so created a game plan to win.

    "Schmidt rugby" was the game Leinster and Clermont played. Some Irish fans have a very very short memory.



  • Administrators Posts: 56,559 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    He has even less time with the AB players than he had with the Ireland players. His time with Leinster and Clermont is so long ago it's of little relevance now.

    We are a good enough team now that we don't need to start worrying about the ABs to a greater extent just because they have Joe Schmidt as part of their panel!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭ZookeeperDub


    Nobody is saying that Joe shouldn't have changed post 2018, teams worked out Ireland and they concentrated on them post the NZ win, but he didn't and according to Rob Kearney none of the players or coach's realised the issue till post the Twickers game in warm up.

    Plus Farrell has done the right thing and built on what Joe did. E.g. we still have power plays off set pieces etc. Plus Paulie was brought in and everyone has pointed out Paulie has taken a lot of what he learned from Joe into his role.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭ZookeeperDub


    It was discussed at the time he didn't think the Irish players had the skill set and he didn't have the time to bring them up like he did in Leinster.

    Based on Farrell and what he did after 2 years Joe was wrong on this

    But he will certainly believe the NZ players have the skills so he doesn't need that time he thought he needed with Ireland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,083 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    He didn't think the Irish players had the handling skills and didn't have the time with them that he did with Leinster 

    Did Joe say that? I don't think he did.

    Like, we won the GS, a tour in Australia and beat the ABs in 2018. It's not like he was starting from scratch.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭ZookeeperDub


    Not that I can remember but he played a very low risk game, when he joined Leinster BOD confirmed he told them he wanted them to be the best passing team in Europe and that is what they became.

    I can't remember if Joe said it but certainly it was discussed many times over the years he was coach.

    I seem to remember, I think it was Murray Kinsella, saying that a lot of SH coachs come over to NH and just don't think the players and the weather allow for that more attacking passing style so revert to a more low risk plan. It was low risk but a game plant to win which it did. I don't see why people complain about it. His record as Irish coach speaks for itself



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,755 ✭✭✭ersatz


    In 2019 they drew with NZ and beat the other two in a 3 match run. No-one was jumping up and down about them and when NZ beat them in the group stage they were written off. They'd been off form for years at that stage. Rassie primed them perfectly as it turned out but if they'd been blown out of the group few people would have been surprised. In 2018 the went 1-1 against both OZ and NZ, winning at home and losing on the road.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,083 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    There's a huge amount of hindsight here.

    SA were well beaten in the pool by NZ, were very unimpressive against Japan in the QFs and fell over the line with a late penalty to beat Wales in the SF. They didn't remotely look like a RWC-winning team until the final so I'm not sure they were that well primed at all.

    Of course, once they actually made the final, they didn't look back, credit where it's due.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,755 ✭✭✭ersatz


    Fair enough, the point Im making is that SA in 2019 were not regarded as a very good team nor had they been for years. It's a hill Shehal seems determined to die on.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭ZookeeperDub


    Most had SA tipped prior to WC, look at the bookies odds and the articles below. Plenty more if you look.

    https://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/rugby-union/rugby-world-cup-betting-odds-18996798


    Outright winner

    New Zealand: 5/4

    South Africa: 9/2

    England: 9/2

    Ireland: 7/1



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,755 ✭✭✭ersatz


    Full circle here, multiple winner favoured even though they are off form. You are making my point for me, regardless of how **** their form is NZ and SA will always be among the very favourites for the WC because they are proven winners. Ireland come in as 'the best team in the world' yet are behind NZ and just ahead of SA at the bookies. Have they ever been outside the top 3 at the bookies before the WC?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 929 ✭✭✭Mr Disco




  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,377 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,281 ✭✭✭Ardillaun


    I would still rate NZ as the best team at the last RWC - in a sustained league situation I think NZ would have won against the other teams. England had a France moment and played out of their boots to beat them. Our performance between Cups has been fantastic this time. We’ll have to wait and see if it makes any difference to the usual turn of events.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,027 ✭✭✭lbj666


    If France backed up their performances against NZ in 99, Ireland in 03, NZ in 2007, England in 2011 they would have a star on the shirt by now.

    So in order to justify Frances chances, recent form has to be taken into account. If they showed any bit of cohesion going into 99,07 and 11 that could have been enough to win it out. They do have that now.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,755 ✭✭✭ersatz


    Yeah, hard to see past them if their performance against SA is anything to go by. Like Ireland, if they get a good start its very hard to stay with them. Ireland will come into it with a lot of confidence and a successful gameplay that's hard to deal with so these two laying against each other is a very hard call. 1st or third test?



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