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Irish Under-20's 2023

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,349 ✭✭✭theVersatile


    Interesting stat from a style of play/coaching/x-factor perspective



  • Registered Users Posts: 241 ✭✭johnh6767




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,351 ✭✭✭Locke_Lamora


    I'm as critical as anyone of our academy, but do you have anyone in mind? It seems more to me that we don't have enough good young players that deserve game time.



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,576 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Very much in keeping with the playing styles of the two countries.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,427 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    This has been a very successful tournament for Ireland and I can see half a dozen of those players being provincial regulars and getting Ireland caps. Ireland looked well coached and the players executed their attacking strategy well. The standouts for me were Quinn, Gleeson, Prendergast, Paddy McCarthy and Mangan.

    I think Mangan in particular got better as the tournament progressed. Did a lot of the dirty work in the backrow whilst also contributing with so huge tight carries.

    I do think Ireland looked a bit too rigid in attack at times. Like we were playing to the plan rather than the game. I've seen some of the more prominent Irish rugby Twitter accounts calling Prendergast a systems player, but to me that's a complete misreading of his abilities. He's a very dangerous broken field runner and can spot gaps in defence and push the line break. Did a fair bit of that in the recent Six Nations. Didn't show it much over the last few weeks, but the ability is there.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,935 ✭✭✭jacothelad



    It's not the few that are there, I am talking about, it's the ones who disappeared over the years. The last international back 5 forward of any real note produced by the Academy is Iain Henderson. He got his first Ireland cap in 2012. The last prop of note before TOT was Simon Best who retired in 2007. The last back row of any quality was Ferris with a nod Chris Henry. The last 10 worth a place in the Ireland squad apart from P.J. was David Humphreys. The last scrum half from the academy before Doak was Paul Marshall and before that Doak's father. Lots of guys have gone through the academy in these positions and we never heard of then again. Yes, we have produced good hookers and backs over the years. I just refuse to believe that all those other guys over the years selected for the academy and who disappeared into the ether were no good. All of them? .....Nah!

    Remember wqtching in bewilderment while Brian Mclaughlin and then Les Kiss turned out teams where the centres were on the wings, wings in the centres 6s at 7, 9s at 8 etc. Remember the jokes about selections by chicken entrails and Ouija Board. Well it isn't as bad as that but not a lot.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,576 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Does anyone know where I could watch the u20 Trophy?

    USA v Uruguay on currently



  • Registered Users Posts: 293 ✭✭Number 137


    France simply excellent and unfortunately they dished out a hammering to Ireland in the end. I think we missed Cooney from a defensive point of view in the backs.

    I'm usually a staunch defender of referees and this is a development tournament for referees too, but I thought the referee was out of his depth. Made a lot of technically poor decisions, was bailed out by his TMO more than once for what should have been relatively clear and obvious offences. He also had absolutely no relationship with players and had the game been tight, I think control may have become an issue.

    His performance ultimately didn't affect the score line, but his performance was sub par in my opinion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 241 ✭✭johnh6767


    Yes conversion v Leinster in particular is abysmal , something amiss



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  • Registered Users Posts: 241 ✭✭johnh6767




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,699 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    I think the rigid aspect is down to the lack of greativity in the backline. To me, the backline was a weakness.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,699 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    The prospects this year are fine, promising players.

    Loose heads, Hadden will be a professional player. I think he'll grow with time and at least make it to the Munster team. Morris is not academy bound and imo, will not make it. McCarthy if he stays at loose head is a possible international. He could make the switch to tight head and be solid.

    Hooer. McCarthy unfortunately, has 2 international lads and McKee ahead of him. Also Lee Barron who is in his final academy year. I reckon that McCarthy has the tools to have a solid career. Great leader too. Sheahan, didn't see enough.

    Tight head. McCarthy if he is switched has massive potential. Foxe looks like he'd be an asset to any of the provinces. Barrett is a work in progress, I've hopes for him.

    Locks. Hopes is eligible next year and although he didn't feature much, I think could be a key lad next year. He's going into year 2. O'Connell has another year of eligibility and he too will benifit from this year's run. Irvine has great size, potential and showed some flashes. O'Tighernaigh is solid if unspectacular. A nuts and bolts lad. I think he'll be a solid option for Leinster in a few years.

    Loose forwards.

    Quinn is the real deal. Great prospect. I see him as a constant for Munster and perhaps Ireland. Barron, I don't know much about him. He's not signed to an academy yet. Mangan will be a good player, imo. Very good line out option and a good engine. Molony missed the tourney with injury. Gleeson the pick of the side. Huge hopes for this lad. Best prospect in the squad, imo. McNabney has the tools to progress. I can see him being a regular for Ulster soon.

    9's.

    Cawley is a good prospect. No academy place yet. Maybe Connacht? Gunne is a lad I am really excited by. In my opinion this lad could be with Leinster for a decade!

    10's.

    Prendergast will be on a senior contract next year. Lynch has no academy spot.

    Wings. A weakness for the team in my opinion. Nicholson is a defensive liability at the moment. I can't see him being the future Ireland 11. Same with Osborne. Great size! Poor defense. But lots of time to work on it. McErlean is a joy to watch. I think he's going to have a solid career. Gavin is probably more of a 12? Big lad with potential.

    Centers.

    Cooney looks very talented. Good open field runner and defensive organizer. Lots of potential. Devine also a very good prospect. But, he's in a position with Forde and possibly Hawkshaw x 2 in ahead of him.

    Congrats to the lads and Murphy and the coaching staff. Thy gave us a memorable season! I can't see a repeat of this anytime soon.

    Also, congrats to France. Outstanding team.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,699 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Anyone care to take a shot at next year's squad? In building up to the season, I'd like to see the squad play the province's "A" sides



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,599 ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    Around Christmas every year the Ireland U20 squad plays games against Leinster and Munster development squads.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,351 ✭✭✭Locke_Lamora


    In the build up to the the u20 six nations they play Leinster and Munster 'A' or 'development' sides and usually have a game against Italy, but that won't be until the end of the year. There aren't any u20 interpros anymore, but most players will train and play for their respective provinces A sides.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,351 ✭✭✭Locke_Lamora


    A couple people already posted their guesses for next years XV a while back, and I've been thinking a little about which positions are looking to be the most up for debate and where some u19's might be promoted early.

    I imagine O'Connell is the first name in the second row but the other spot seems open to me. Hopes probably has a running start on it as he's already played as an u19, but I don't think he really impressed all that much and the coaches could go with a heavier option or someone better at the dirty work. There are a couple of huge u19's but Walsh will still be in school and Spicer doesn't really seem to have started in interpros for Leinster much and seems more a project player rather that someone who will start for the u20s a year early.

    Hooker looks very open to me. Sheehan played a year early but didn't really stand out, Zac Solomon just made Ulster's academy, and Stephen Smyth is a recent backrow convert and I thought he played well against Japan - just need to see if he has the lineouts and scrums down. Maybe is there's a standout u19 they can sneak in here but I reckon it's probably one of these three.

    There are a few backrowers of similar quality all effectively fighting for two places because of Gleeson: Sheehan, Stevens, McKillop, Ward, Briggs. Sheehan has played u20 already but wasn't trusted much by the coaches and might not have played if Liam Moloney wasn't injured. Ward and McKillop missed out on Ulsters academy while Briggs made it. I think an u19 could win a place.

    I'm not sure about the quality of the flyhalves next year or who's favoured over who.

    The back three should be a tight contest, lots of good options there. McLaughlin, Kenny and O'Connor all highly regarded in their respective provinces. McFarlane, Kiely, Graham all good as well.

    Kritzinger and Berman were the preferred centres at u18 level but Gavin played a lot for the u20's this year as an u19 and although was a mixed bag at times, his size and strength are great assets. I think he'll be the first name on the sheet but I'm not sure who'll partner him and who'll be 12/13. Kritzinger didn't stand out for me in the senior cup or for the 19s but he was out all year long with a bad injury I think, and Berman has u20 experience and had a few good moments but overall I wasn't very impressed. They were fairly poor defensively for the u19s against Japan but only had a couple of training sessions together whereas Japan were very well organised. Wales gave them a lot of bother in the u18 six nations but Akerman and Hennessey have both stood out for them in the u20s already. I feel like I'm forgetting someone else in contention and there are a couple of decent u18 centres this year but they are very small and still in school.

    Anyway, that was a lot of rambling and obviously there's a lot of rugby/developing to do but at this stage I'll guess:

    1. Jacob Boyd 2. Stephen Smyth 3. Andrew Sparrow 4. Joe Hopes 5. Evan O'Connell 6. Luke Murphy (u19) 7. Josh Stevens 8. Brian Gleeson 9. Jake O'Riordan 10. Jack Murphy 11. Ben O'Connor 12. Luke Kritzinger 13. Hugh Gavin 14. Lukas Kenny 15. Hugo McLaughlin


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,069 ✭✭✭realhorrorshow


    Gavin definitely struggled a bit at times at 13 but I'm not aware of him playing any high level rugby in the position prior, tough ask to come into such a key role at short notice. Wonder where he'll play his rugby next year, he'll surely have to leave Wegians. If he's seen as an outside centre long term some time in that position for Buccs and Connacht Eagles would do him a lot of good, in addition to adding another year of S&C to excellent natural athleticism.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,699 ✭✭✭Dubinusa




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,699 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    I reckon Berman will make the team. He's a good player and did well in this tournament despite only coming off the bench.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,650 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    A couple of points you didn’t mention from a Munster perspective; If you’re moving Ben O’Connor I’d rather see him at 10. I don’t think he has the pace to play on the wing at this level. Dylan Hicks must have something about him to be taken straight from (a non rugby) school into the Munster academy, I think he’ll feature at some stage at 10. Sean Edogbo is best athlete I’ve even seen come through Ireland youths, he’s more than physical enough for the backrow and he beats most backs for pace but he’s a bit undersized for a modern 8 and the fact he hasn’t been selected for the Munster Academy in his second year out of school is a bad omen. Still it would be a shame not to see him at some stage next year.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,582 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s


    I’d guess O Connor is going to be a 15 or maybe a 12. He has so much upside i’d play him at 15 even if he is raw. Just from the clips i’ve seen he is a real athlete.

    Edogbo needs to change position. There is way too much talent in the munster back row and more coming. I’d offer him an academy spot now if he would try centre. Honestly, munster need some of these guys to play front row but its prob too late for edogbo there.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,351 ✭✭✭Locke_Lamora


    I thought Hicks might have a chance but all I've seen of him are those three u18 six nations games.

    I wasn't too fussed about the back three's exact positions but I felt that I'd want McLaughlin on the ball as much as possible. You are probably right though and honestly all of McLaughlin, Kenny, McFarlane and O'Connor are very good and came through as fullbacks.

    I've seen only a little of Edogbo but mostly didn't mention him here as he didn't feature at all in the four tests with Japan and France, and as you said, hadn't been picked up by Munster yet. He could very well feature in the squad though, this is all guesswork at this point without seeing how these guys do at a more senior level.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,650 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    I think Edogbo was injured for the Japan and France tests as he also didn’t feature at all for UCC at that time, which would be unusual. Ultimately you are probably right though, I don’t think this Irish set up is primed to take a punt on upside, especially in a position as stacked as the backrow.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,650 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    The time to try him at center was at the academy intake last year. Instead Munster went with trying Gibbons as a center, which by all accounts has been a disaster in year one. UCC have tried him at 6 but he’s better at 8.



  • Registered Users Posts: 204 ✭✭ljsulster


    My opinions on eligible ulster players next year:

    Jacob Boyd- Hugely athletic and skilful prop who can scrummage on both sides, would be expected to start at loosehead

    Joe Hopes- high ‘hopes’ for a hugely talented 2nd row- should partner O’Connell

    James Mckillop- The best forward I’ve seen at schools level since James Mccormick/ Tom Stewart. Hugely physical, skilful and athletic. A more skilful McNabney

    Josh Stevens- Very Physical defender who runs great lines in attack, Twice the player of Crothers who came before

    Bryn Ward- Animal ball in hand, not sure about his defence. Should be in the squad

    Tom Brigg- Not as good as the above imo. Ulster must rate him highly though



  • Registered Users Posts: 204 ✭✭ljsulster


    Ben McFarlane- put in one of the best individual performances I’ve ever seen in the schools cup final in 2022. Similar in height to Mike Lowry but a better looking player who’s goal kicking is very good. Very quick and great footwork

    Ethan Graham- Electric pace and talented footballer who’s a very good tackler also. Came through the clubs pathway in ulster and has played regularly for Ballynahinch and ulster A


    Lukas Kenny- Absolute game changing player on both sides of the ball, by far the best back in ulster and will probably make his senior debut straight out of school this season. Physical, Fast, Skillful. Has so much time on the ball



  • Registered Users Posts: 241 ✭✭johnh6767




  • Registered Users Posts: 249 ✭✭conquestscarer


    I thought Hugo McLaughlin was one of the better school prospects I've seen and putting him on the wing probably doesn't get the best of his kicking game/ playmaking as a second receiver. The fullback position does look competitive though.



  • Registered Users Posts: 69 ✭✭alanb92


    Will Gene O’Leary-Kareem still be in school next year? He looks an incredible talent so I reckon he will put his hand up for one of those centre positions, if he has left school.

    Back 3 should be really exciting - Hugo McLaughlin is the best wing talent Leinster have produced in a long time. Ben O’Connor is a serious player too, great coup for Munster to get him to commit to rugby.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,351 ✭✭✭Locke_Lamora




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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,582 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s


    You can figure this out by looking at the NTS lists, anyone who is in last year of school now will be available for u20 next year regardless of their age..as long as they are u20 of course which they always will be to my knowledge. .

    So, looking at the list,. No, he has two years of school left and he’s u18 now so he will only be available for one year of u20.

    Looking at guys who will be u19 next year and finished school, and I’m not saying this is all of them

    Paidi Farrell

    Luke Murphy

    Jed O Dwyer

    Dylan Hicks

    Alex Mullan

    Emmet Calvey

    Alex Usanov

    I cross checked latest u18 schools with NTS to make list. Obviously could miss people who were injured for that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 69 ✭✭alanb92


    Cheers for that, good to know.

    Does anyone see Charlie Sheridan being involved much next year or will his size work against him? He seems to be tearing it up in the AIL.

    Side point, but does anyone know how Karl Martin has been faring at Montpellier? He looked so promising at u18 level.



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,576 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    He played half a match all season



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,582 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s


    I don’t see Sheridan on the NTS which is probably a bad sign. Although this is the first year the list is public i think so who knows how much it changes year to year. He does seem to be killing it in the AIL.



  • Registered Users Posts: 26 tindjim1990


    Find it odd why Sheridan isnt, anytime I see him play im impressed, and no gaping holes in his game that suggest why hes not involved in the NTS for example watching NAAS play he looks a far more complete and player than Osbourne and Osbourne seems to be getting all the attention...maybe with some help from his brothers profile.

    Sheridan is on the smaller side but theres plenty of smaller backs in the NTS and Ringrose isnt exactly a monster whilst granted Ringrose is a very physical defender.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,699 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Is Murphy still the coach next year?



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,425 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    Haven't heard otherwise but not sure of his contract status.

    You'd imagine that he'd be reasonably in demand given his CV - Skills/Kicking coach for the National team for a good while and now back to back grand slams at U20.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,582 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s


    You’d imagine he’d want to as his kid will probably be the 10. One last year.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,582 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s


    It depends how small he is. That could be the gaping hole. We seem to be trending size in centre and wing recently at u20.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,351 ✭✭✭Locke_Lamora


    Leinster aren't afraid of taking in smaller centres - Liam Turner, Hugh Cooney and David Hawkshaw certainly aren't towering over anyone, although they've all shown to be fairly physical for their size.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,582 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s


    Yea fair enough. Its hard to see what it could be then.. he is really killing it in AIL at a young age.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,699 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Turner plays like he's way bigger. He's fantastic.



  • Registered Users Posts: 222 ✭✭kita99


    I think that IRFU need to invest foreign living players regardless who are IQ or NIQ to win over France. Is IRFU do it sireously or effectively? Ireland needs some boys like Tuilagi. Maybe he did't select country. Samoa is sinking island rapidly, so he must work at any place to get money for his family. In other countries, young potential rugby player want to be Ireland members like Mack Hansen. If Irfu will continue to depend on only players from 'School', Ireland U20 absolutely do not win over France forever. Is it no need?



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,576 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    I somehow doubt Posolo Tuilagi decided to move to France at age 3 to earn money for his family of international rugby players.



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Paloma Tender Skepticism


    100% his dad famously played for perpingian which is why hes there


    If your idea is i.port a load of islanders in the hope they have kids who are monsters i guess you could fund that



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,699 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Tualatin didn't win that final. The entire side were a step above everyone else. Tualatin was not great in that match and he stood out to me because of his size. The backline and the back row were superb.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,425 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    The guys that stood out for France were almost exclusively the guys that have been starting for their Clubs senior teams most of this season.

    That experience was a massive differentiator.



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,576 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Gazzotti had only the three starts in ProD2 and was, I think, player of the tournament at only 18. But by and large the team had tons more top-level gametime than anyone else (all other teams combined I think).



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,069 ✭✭✭realhorrorshow


    Of the starting team, only the props had no senior pro experience.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,699 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    I think Juneau was the best player this year. Chessum and Gleeson are close behind.



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