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M28 - Cork to Ringaskiddy [advance works ongoing; 2025 start; 2028 completion]

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Comments

  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,480 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Given that these are only advance works, it would be unlikely for work to continue hell for leather long term.

    We won't see major works until the main contract is awarded which remains at least 15-18 months away.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,663 ✭✭✭prunudo


    Are the reasons for such long lead times due to legal or monetary reasons? After all the planning and objection delays, it seems projects drag on needlessly these days.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,480 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    The funding to commence the project has not been provided.

    The entire budget for new national roads next year is expected to be €145m. That level of pathetic funding is holding up projects left right and centre.

    Should this project be fully funded it could commence in late 2024. It’s a pity because it’s not some pork barrel project, its holding up so much in so many places.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    Funding is undoubtedly an issue, as it always is, and there is a constant feeling that Ryan’s department are using funding delay tactics to put a break on road projects when all other means of stopping them have failed. But I don’t think it is the key issue here. First off this project is to be funded under TEN-T which I believe means the EU will pay 25%-50% and secondly the cost of the road (given that it is only 12.5km in total) is relatively small in the overall capital budget context. It’s also worth mentioning that the M/N28 project was allocated €19m in 2023 to allow advanced works and other project work (including the tendering process) to proceed. 

    The project is currently at TII Phase 5 (Enabling and Procurement). This involves the preparation, publication and assessment of tenders as well as advance works (land acquisition, site clearance, fencing, utility diversions and archeology), general governance (cost, value, risk assessment etc), selection and appointment of Technical Advisory Services for the remaining phases and ultimately the preparation and presentation of the Final Business Case. It was always anticipated that this phase would be longer than usual for this project and I remember a period of 3-4 years being mentioned - with a lot of it caused by the scale of CPOs required, together with the complexity of the service diversions at the Northern end and the extent of the archeological work required. 

    We aren’t seeing any ongoing updates which is a pity. Reading between the lines it looks like it will go to tender sometime in the next 12 months, with the contract award and final approval to proceed (including funding) by the end of 2025 and construction starting in 2026. 

    One word of caution. While Sean Callery, Senior Engineer with the Cork National Roads Office said last October that the M28 motorway is scheduled to be completed by 2030, and TEN-T also expects completion of the Core TEN-T (of which the M28 is part) by 2030, TII have stated on a couple of occasions that completion of the M28 is expected “post 2030”.

    And in case it it looks like I am trying to justify the timeline, I’m not. Prunudo’s point about projects dragging on needlessly is very well made. Under TII and the DPER the whole process has become bizarrely complicated and there is almost no chance of a major road/infrastructure project being completed in less than 10 years excluding any legal delays. If the M28 is completed by 2030, it will be 18 years since the project started (and you could argue considerably longer).



  • Registered Users Posts: 423 ✭✭legend99


    There are builders in Mount Oval, and have been for weeks and weeks, and they are continuing to work on what must be a pretty expensive wall! Various sections had their heights spray painted on at one point, and some sections were tagged ad 6 meters....



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,175 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    "We aren’t seeing any ongoing updates which is a pity. Reading between the lines it looks like it will go to tender sometime in the next 12 months, with the contract award and final approval to proceed (including funding) by the end of 2025 and construction starting in 2026. "

    If any of this is accurate, it is a disgraceful timeline slippage. It was supposed to start next year for the last few years.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,532 ✭✭✭✭Mushy


    Wife works for company who are bidding for this, their deadline is end of May for submission



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,087 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    The intended commencement has been 2026 for at least two years, if not longer. Funding has been limited until 2026 (and not due to lack of money, just spend profiling) but due to increase from then on. Given the huge exchequer surpluses being posted, commencement really should be brought forward.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,087 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Just to clarify for others, that is the tender for consultants to oversee the procurement and construction phases, not for construction itself.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,663 ✭✭✭prunudo


    Doubt the greens could stomach the idea of speeding up the start date of construction of an almost shovel ready road project.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,087 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    I doubt the Greens would be bothered, the project will happen regardless and the port relocation it facilitates will have many extra benefits. The problem is more with Dept. Fin/DPER.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,480 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    DTTAS funding for 2020-2025, published before the last election, had this scheme receiving 178m between 2020 and 2025. Obviously the judicial review put that back by 1 year, which would still have resulted in the scheme starting in mid 2024*

    The first I heard of any substantial delay to this was when TII CEO Peter Walsh appeared before the Oireachtas Transport Committee in January 2021 where he said there was no money to start any additional projects until after 2026 other than the N5/Moycullen/Listowel which had been committed to.

    (Funding was 2020 - 4m, 2021 - 12m, 2022 - 12m, 2023 - 50m, 2024 - 50m, 2025 - 50m, apologies my keyboard has no functioning euro symbol).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    Hopefully all of it is accurate, I believe that it is. If you are aware of anything to the contrary I’d like to hear about it.

    That is the following contract/tender for Technical Advisory Services for Phases 5,6 and 7. I referred to this in my previous post. The fact that these consultants are needed for the current phase is itself an eye opener. (I would have expected them to be on board well before the main tender invitation is issued)


    It’s a road. On past performance Ryan will do anything possible to slow it down. And unfortunately the project is far from shovel ready. Even if funding in full were approved today it is unlikely that construction could commence before 2025.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,480 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    It’s a road. On past performance Ryan will do anything possible to slow it down. And unfortunately the project is far from shovel ready. Even if funding in full were approved today it is unlikely that construction could commence before 2025.

    Indeed. If only he wasn't so blinkered he might realise:

    1. The M28 will allow far better bus access to Carrigaline, Ringaskiddy and Cork Harbour
    2. It'll greatly improve options for active travel, even if it just means the old N28 won't be as busy (cycling access to Ringaskiddy is pathetic at present because of Carrs Hill).
    3. The M28 will enable more port functions to move out of the city, opening up land for thousands of homes in new, sustainable precincts in the city
    4. It'll remove trucks and heavy traffic from urban areas
    5. It'll reduce traffic idling on Carrs Hill (emissions from going nowhere)

    Such a pity they can't see the forest from the trees.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,532 ✭✭✭✭Mushy


    Oh Jesus, I just assumed they were coming up to the construction stage. Wife wouldn't be acting as a consultant, is only told what to put into a tender document, hence why I thought were at that stage.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭Hibernicis




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,663 ✭✭✭prunudo


    "It’s a road. On past performance Ryan will do anything possible to slow it down. And unfortunately the project is far from shovel ready. Even if funding in full were approved today it is unlikely that construction could commence before 2025."


    I'm no road engineer but looking at that footage, I don't see how, if there was a will and funding was available, construction couldn't start within the next year. We're too bloody slow at infrastructure in this country and only getting worse.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,087 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Consultants to prepare the tender documents haven't been appointed yet. Once someone is appointed, it will likely take the best part of a year to prepare the tender package. Once the tender has been issued, it usually takes about a year before a contractor is appointed. Best case, it commences summer 2025.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,028 ✭✭✭blindsider


    For those of us who use the N28 every day, this is depressing!

    WFH is not an option, even 1 day a week...

    I may retire before this bloody road opens 😨



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,253 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Well there is no alternative. Even if it's slowed down to 0, there is absolutely no alternative. I've spoken to some greens who have said they were against this road upgrade and they didn't have any alternate proposals. So I don't see any benefit from slowing it down, personally. Maybe they're hoping busconnects and Carrigaline TPREP will be done first but I don't think the phasing matters much (and I doubt busconnects will do much of anything at all if I'm honest).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    An upgrade is needed for safety. I do not believe that this is being held up by the Green Party: more likely is that the delays are from a reluctance to commit to the project’s high construction costs in what is still a pretty volatile environment in terms of construction costs.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,087 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    There currently isn't anything delaying the project. Enabling works are ongoing and will be for a while yet, construction can't start until these are completed. Consultants are being procured who will prepare the construction contract tender package, a necessary step which can't be skipped. Hopefully there are no delays in issuing the construction tender and subsequent commencement of the works.

    There have been delays in the past, most notably the appeals to the planning approval, but as things stand today, the necessary steps to allow for construction are all proceeding.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    Dronehawk's latest (May 2023) M28 Update video

    And a second video, also May 2023, showing the start of the route from a higher altitude. Published by Wojciech Frankowski


    Three surprisingly interesting videos by Red River Archaeology Group who are conducting the the M28 archaeological investigations






  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,562 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    Dan Boyle was posting on here claiming a rail line from Cobh to Ringaskiddy was the solution.

    I thought it ill thought out at best. The lorries accessing the port are distributing containers literally everywhere around Munster. Rail in this case would be useful for moving containers to specific locations only. It’s just didn’t make sense.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,977 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    It certainly isn't a solution though I have to say looking at a map it is TANTALISINGLY close from the likes of Ringaskiddy to Rushbrooke. You can easily see the trains from the port.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 413 ✭✭EnzoScifo


    a fixed rail bridge from Cobh to Ringaskiddy would stop ships docking at Marino Point. Not a hope in hell it would happen unless they tunelled it or some sort of swing brigde



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,977 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    A raising bridge of some sort would be technically feasible I guess and would probably happen in most places, but certainly not in this country.

    Remember we haven't built ANY new build rail since the foundation of the state (reopening or widening lines and the LUAS not counted).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,087 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    A bridge across the harbour would cost a fortune and would be a planning nightmare, add in the opening requirement and it becomes even more expensive and difficult. It is not a realistic option, particularly when Marino Point will be able to facilitate sea to rail transfers.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,480 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Prior Information Notice for Main Works to be published imminently

    Prequal of contractors to commence August 2023

    Construction to commence Q4 2024.


    Welcome news.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    Hi Marno21, I don't want split hairs but I think it is worth posting the actual wording from the TII document.

    Significant advance works ongoing, including major utility diversions. Cork County Council submitted a Derogation Report proposing the use of an NEC Target Cost Contract, this was approved on 5 April.

    Tenders for Technical Advisor appointment, Phases 5, 6 & 7 were received on the 21st June.

    The Main Works tender Prior Information Notice will be published in June 23. Prequalification of Contractors to commence in August 23. Construction is expected to commence in Q4 2024 subject to PSC Gate 3 and Cabinet approval.

    While your post is a fair representation of this, given what is happening to other projects the last sentence (which I highlighted in bold) is significant in that it allows another opportunity for the project to be needlessly delayed by Ryan. I don't want to drag the thread off-topic so I'll post more on his conduct in your Logjam thread.

    And given that the issuing of the tender documents is still some time away, I'd suggest that expecting construction to commence in Q4 2024 is highly aspirational and at the very least assumes no hitches, delays or cock-ups, never mind political meddling.

    Sorry to be a negative voice on this again, but nothing in the firmament gives me any cause for optimism in relation to this or any other road infrastructure project at present.



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  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,480 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    This is a fair comment, this thread is the only thread I didn’t copy the quote verbatim. I think after years of waiting when I finally saw a firm construction date I had to run to the thread with it.

    Whilst your caution is completely founded, I will add that so far he hasn’t been able to put in place any road blocks when it comes to construction contracts in my experience. I think at that stage there are companies and parties involved and if he’s at shenanigans someone will raise it up the chain rather quickly.

    Q4 2024 is also prime election time and there are 2 senior Cabinet Ministers in this area who may be sweating it this time around.

    IMO this one is pretty safe. We shall proceed with hope but awareness of the potential delays.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,977 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    This one is safe I think even with Ryan in charge. Its just so necessary for Cork and the Port, and isn't a bypass, per se, or a long distance stretch of road.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,985 ✭✭✭mikeym


    Three government ministers in the same constituency as the M28 project.

    Micheal Martin.

    Michael McGrath.

    Simon Coveney.

    I know they aren’t involved with the project but surely they should be pushing for it to be built.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    You would think that wouldn't you. But you'd be completly wrong.

    Martin, aided and abetted by his "ears on the ground no threat local side-kick" Desmond was quite public in his support for the M28 Steering Group, who actively campaigned against the M28 and blocked it for three years and apart from the delay achieved absolutely nothing of substance. Apart from putting thousands of N28 road users at risk every day.

    Both McGrath and Coveney were more subtle, shifting from one arse cheek to the other and riding both sides of the ditch with a "well the new road is necessary but of course we must listen to the democratic voice of the people" kind of "love you long time give me votes" stance.

    For completeness, Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire pretty much kept his mouth shut, and certainly was never a vociferous supporter of the new road. And in contrast, Jerry Buttimer, never shut his mouth in opposition to the project.

    I won't bother mentioning the local Green representatives, firstly because you can guess their stance and secondly because both of them are now utterly irrelevant.

    So all in all, the level of support for the project from the main local politicians was somewhere between zero and minus five.

    However, you can also be sure that their diaries already have provisional entries for the opening in 2031 or whenever.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 607 ✭✭✭DylanQuestion


    The wall in Broadale is done and the builders have returned the area to normal. Does anyone know why they left the two sides open, and what they plan on doing with them? Also, the face of the wall facing the link is still bare concrete

    Interestingly, a lot of the ash trees that were felled on the eastern ridge are growing back like nothing happened



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,977 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Ash trees are pretty much invincible, unless Ash Dieback comes a'knocking!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,966 ✭✭✭cantalach




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 607 ✭✭✭DylanQuestion


    The wall nearest the slip road lining the golf course was knocked and has been rebuilt further back and at an angle, I assume to allow for Maryborough Hill to be widened for the future turning lane

    Post edited by DylanQuestion on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    best guess is completion in 2030 approx. This has been discussed in this thread previously if you wish to scroll back.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,248 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    2030? Best guess is 2027 with a 2024 start and a 30-36 month build.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,253 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Does the whole thing need to be opened at once? I know it's a short scheme but it seems to me that Carrs Hill itself is far more urgent than the bit by Raffeen and on towards Ringaskiddy.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,480 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Don’t give the Government any ideas. We’d be waiting til the 2040s for Phase 2 then

    If you did N40-Shannonpark you’d have jams at Shannonpark before long



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,557 ✭✭✭kub


    It was indeed, looking at that wall it is as you mentioned within the line of the current one.

    It is blatantly obvious that the adjoining wall alongside the adjoining property will also need to realigned.

    This I fear however will take a long time before that can proceed.

    Post edited by kub on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    This hasn’t gone to tender yet, and it’s quite conceivable that the tender won’t even be published this year. There is no chance of construction commencing in 2024. TII are on record that this is targeted for completion post 2030. There was a discussion on the likely completion date a few pages back if you’d like to review it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    TII will I suspect find it difficult enough to get viable contractors interested in quoting for this project. They are already having to make alterations to the way the tender and contract will be framed in the hope of attracting interest. Dividing it up into phases would make it even less attractive, especially given that its a small enough piece of work to begin with.

    Post edited by Hibernicis on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,087 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Your last sentence isn't correct. A smaller contract would most likely attract a wider pool of potential contractors who wouldn't have the capability or meet minimum requirements for a larger contract. It would also reduce the risk and exposure to the contractor.

    In any case, it is entirely possible, and even standard, to set out elements of a project which are to be completed first. With this entire scheme as a single contract, TII could set from Shannonpark north as the priority and to be handed over first.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,248 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    I never actually said it would go to construction in 2024. I was pointimg out that this was the best case scenario as you claimed a 2030 opening was the best case scenario.

    When we're talking about hypothetical opening dates, the best case scenario is 2027.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,480 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    TII's last update was commencement of main works contract in Q4 2024 but that was subject to main tender PIN publication in June and prequal of contractors to commence in August.

    To my knowledge, neither of these events have taken place yet.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,562 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    What’s the plan for the Shannon Park junction. Assume a trumpet would make sense but no doubt they won’t go for it.



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