Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

Options
1116117119121122190

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 960 ✭✭✭Conchir


    I was following another unrelated ABP case recently, it passed its decision due date by 3-4 months with no update on the website before finally being decided, so I would be pleasantly surprised if there was an update given here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,502 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Dates are not updated anymore as they never set a new date.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40 jumpinsheep


    That makes it difficult for the general public, to understand a new potential timeline / delay in the process. Guess that even if they were asked to make an update, it is probably never going to happen. Ah sure, it's grand.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,690 ✭✭✭jd


    I looked at the ABP site to see what the story is, looks like there was an update


    Decision


    Case is due to be decided by 21/12/2023



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,257 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    So lodged on 30/9/22 and no decision until 21/12/23- just shy of 1 year and 3 months later.

    It’s just too slow for a piece of infrastructure that’s incredibly important to the country.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 3,384 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    How long after the decision is it due to be operational?

    I assume a decade away....embarrasing.

    But hey, we have BusConnects....oh wait, thats stalled also because there are no drivers.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,257 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Well as far as I know if it gets a yes on 21/12/23 it can then be objected to a judicial review within 3 months of the decision which brings you to the 21/3/24.

    So someone initiates a JR on the 21/3/24 and then we are into an unknown timescale territory I think.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,384 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,131 ✭✭✭gjim


    Someone initiating a JR doesn't mean it there will be court case - it has to be shown that ABP or the NTA have screwed up and not followed statutory procedure in submitting and processing the application.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40 jumpinsheep


    JR is expensive as I think it needs both a solicitor and a barrister, and the losing part also needs to pay the legal fees; not sure if this is applicable for a JR for ML, but I think that few people may be up for initiating this process, if there is ground to start it in the first place.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 40 jumpinsheep


    Just found the following, regarding Gov Decision Gate 2 and 3 | 4th May 2023: https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2023-05-04/31/

    Here is part of Eamon Ryan's reply:

    " ... TII is currently preparing the Project Design, Planning and Procurement Strategy for MetroLink. It is currently anticipated that these documents will be submitted to the Department of Transport this year for consideration at Decision Gate 2 of the Public Spending Code. Subject to approval at Decision Gate 2 and funding, TII will then prepare a Final Business Case for consideration by Cabinet at Decision Gate 3.

    TII is also in the process of appointing a Client Partner to support the efficient and effective delivery of the project. It is currently anticipated that the Client Partner will be appointed in the coming months to provide the adequate number of resources and support across all phases of the project to ensure the successful delivery of MetroLink. This appointment will be a significant development in the process of progressing MetroLink through the Decision Gate process and toward delivery, subject to approval and funding. ... "

    -------------

    From the updated Preliminary Business case document, page 2-3, table E-2: https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/MetroLink-Preliminary-Business-Case-Updated.pdf

    Milestone: Pre-Tender Approval: Decision Gate 2 | Original Anticipated Timeline: Q2 2023 | Revised Anticipated Timeline: Q2 2023

    Milestone: Railway Order granted | Original Anticipated Timeline: Q4 2023 | Revised Anticipated Timeline: Q1 2024



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,301 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Just on this, if the case has any hint of merit (i.e. it's not vexatious), then the party taking it is usually award a fair chunk of the costs. This is down to the belief that if only people with money have access to justice, then it's not justice at all.

    In other words, there's basically no barrier to taking a JR. The residents of Dartmouth Square will almost certainly bring one (and could afford to bring one, even without the above on costs), Albert College Park is a maybe in my eyes, and the Tara Street residents are an outside bet (the fact that DCC won't support means that they've a lost a lot of steam).



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,262 ✭✭✭prunudo


    When it comes to infrastructure, has a JR ever gone in favour of the appealant. If they're generally awarded costs regardless of the decision then all it does is, cost tax payers money and delay, already delayed important projects.



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,301 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Hmm. I guess the plan for intel a few years back? That was over a CPO of a farmers land, with the Government saying it was vital for the future plans of the plant. The courts decided against the Gov/Intel, as they didn't actually have a plan for the land, just a "sometime in the future, we may build a fab here" plan.

    Once they actually developed a plan, then the CPO succeeded, despite another JR.

    For roads/rail though, no, not that I know of.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,257 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    So is it possible to appeal a JR?

    For example, ABP grant permission- JR initiated by Dartmouth square residents- JR delays things by 6 months?- JR grants permission to build- Dartmouth square residents appeal to high court then the Supreme Court then the European court? (Just thinking of worst case scenario)



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,301 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    It can indeed. Higher bars for entry each time though, but yes, it could theoretically go all the way up to the ECJ.



  • Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭brianc89


    Imagine the laughing stock Ireland would be, if it went all the way to the ECJ.

    They need to introduce some minimum charges to the objectors if they are unsuccessful. Like a graded scale, 1,000 for small scale projects, 10k for medium, 100k+ for large. They should make specific people, not just vague anonymous groups, liable for these costs.

    They could also set up a means tested government fund, where lower income workers can apply for a waiver (after the ruling). This would be fair to all.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,814 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    They could only appeal the High Court decision on a claim they they erred in a point of law in making the decision, which would be difficult to achieve. It's not a case of saying you don't like the decision one court made so let's try another court to see if they make a different decision.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,257 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie




  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,559 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    in some cases where it is considered that a financial interest is all that is at issue, then the court allows the project/issue to proceed and the matter be dealt with by financial awards to the injured party. [For example, a project is opposed because it spoils the view, or prevents access.]

    Not sure if this can be used for infrastructure matters.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 233 ✭✭Heartbreak Hank


    The D6/D6W NIMBY Association are all set to go JR and Europe over bus connects in Terenure. Essentially over some parking spaces (although I'm never actually been sure what the are against and if they would like to see any improvements at all).

    communities not corridors on Twitter: "At public #BusConnects meeting, residents are voicing commitment to go to Judicial review, to go to Europe - such is the strength of feeling regarding proposed #temoleoguersthfarnhamscheme" / Twitter



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,326 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    To be fair to them most of their posts are against road widening and they do have a point. Better solutions including more serious anti car measures are what's needed, they point to the Amsterdam example.

    I can think of several points on the proposed cbcs where the design prioritises road traffic over sustainable modes. All the bus connects corridors include multiple turning lanes for cars which goes against DMURS and the principles of sustainable development.

    If you look at what's proposed for the junction of Christchurch and Patrick St you'd think it came from some 1970s road engineers manual. A dangerously narrow footpath with high footfall and 7 lanes of high speed traffic in our city centre on front of one of our most important historical sites.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,559 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Mod: This is not the Bus Connects thread.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,257 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    I suppose the D6w nimby brigade are a good example of what metro link will be coming up against in the charlemount area.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,384 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    Exactly. We arent going to remove people from their cars by widening roads for both buses and cars.

    That approach makes the space generally less appealing to pedsetrians and can impact negativley on the feel of any impacted village.

    Keep the roads as they are and remove access for cars if we have to, but dont give us (pedsetrians and people that want to inhabit their village) the worst of both worlds with more buses AND more cars.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,887 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    I was looking at this story in the IT and wondering where they'd got this obviously out of date image from (it's got a driver for a start).

    I guess it's from the Metro North docs; couldn't they have used a picture of the currently planned scheme?





  • Registered Users Posts: 7,262 ✭✭✭prunudo


    I've often wondered why the NTA aren't much more proactive with press releases and pushing a positive narrative around imaging and the project as a whole.


    Although, its also probably just lazy journalism, it comes from the same media outlets that often still use photos of the S61 for coast guard related articles.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,692 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    Who can blame them... nearly a quarter of a century and all we have are various mock-ups



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,523 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Articles about Aer Lingus or Dublin Airport still frequently have a picture of Aer Lingus Boeing 737s. Aer Lingus stopped flying them in 2005... we'll probably still be seeing green planes on articles in 20 years time.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,301 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Ah yeah, TII getting frustrated at other public bodies over there submissions on the railway order. Says they could result in the project being delayed for Further Info, or not getting permission. They call out DAA, who want significant changes to the airport station that the project would need a full redesign, and the OPW and the NPWS, for concerns raised about the trees in St Stephens Green, and the park outside of the Mater respectively.

    All those orgs can go F themselves.

    DAA getting a free station at the airport and want significant changes? Nah, I'd prefer it to avoid the airport altogether just to spite them.

    OPW worried about SSG, all while maintaining a motorway through Phoenix Park? Those guys need to get their head examined.

    NPWS worried about a park that no one has access to? Absolutely crazy, do these people listen to themselves?




Advertisement