Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

You've been looking in the wrong direction, the dangers are coming from the Left - read OP

1383941434494

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,417 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien


    Lol.

    I was “barked at” for much, much less than being an intolerant so and so at age 13.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The intolerance came from the teacher, not the student.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,417 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien


    when you say there’s only 2 genders, it’s not you being tolerant. These children go to school to learn. Nowhere they yet to be corrected and learn that there are many genders out there.

    This is just another run of the mill mountain out of a molehill outrage from the right.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    People have different beliefs, and tolerance is a two-way street.

    Some people believe in 100+ genders. Others, such as the LGBT activist -- Peter Tatchell -- believe there are a finite number of genders, but that it's fewer than 100. Some people believe there are even fewer than that. Some people believe they don't have a gender. And some people, like me, don't even believe that genders exist.

    None of the above can be disproven. It's all a matter of subjective opinion.

    That student should have been told that this was her opinion, and that here is an alternative. And that's it. Instead, the teacher went on the attack to foist her opinion down the throat of the student, and that's not on. It would be the equivalent of me forcing my belief on gender onto everyone else, which I would never do.

    People are entitled to their opinions, full stop.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,417 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien


    Tolerance is definitely NOT a two way street, sorry.

    The paradox of tolerance states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually seized or destroyed by the intolerant. 

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance#:~:text=The%20paradox%20of%20tolerance%20states,or%20destroyed%20by%20the%20intolerant.



  • Advertisement
  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    All sorts of fanciful philosophical and sociological one-liners exist, it doesn't make them actual reality.

    They change over time, whilst providing food for thought for philosophy students at university.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,417 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien


    Well, this isn't a one liner. I'm going to go ahead and assume you didn't read that link. Here's a bit that I think is important

    If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.

    In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise.

    But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols.

    We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal.

    Formatting is mine, as it was hard to read in a block of text.


    Would you disagree with this quote?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    This is the key part that applies directly to the case involving this student:

    In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise.

    It's also worth remembering that what's considered tolerant and intolerant shifts over time. What was considered tolerance / intolerance in the 1930s when Popper wrote that piece, is very different to what's considered tolerance / intolerance today. Furthermore, tolerance has a subjective basis. I consider what that teacher said was intolerant, but you consider it tolerant.

    As I said above, this is all very academic -- which is why it works well in university assessments. But it's not applicable to the real world in any significant sense.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,417 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien


    Does it now?

    "...for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols."

    Unfortunately this is the important part. People will not listen to rational argument, or even the scientific studies which show trans people's brain scans ARE different to cis individuals.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    This case involves a student identifying as a cat, and a student being denounced for disagreeing with that identification.

    Talk of brain scans is irrelevant here.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,417 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien


    Do you just like to argue here without reading any of the links?

    Taken from:


    The student replies: “If they want to identify as a cat or something then they are genuinely unwell – crazy.”

    The teacher then asks the young girls where they got the idea that there are only two genders.

    “Gender is not linked to the parts that you were born with, gender is how you identify, which is what I said right from the very beginning of the lesson,” the teacher said.

    The teacher added: “There is actually three biological sexes because you can be born with male and female body parts or hormones” and “there are lots of genders – there is transgender, there is a gender who are people who don’t believe that they have a gender at all.”

    The students disagreed, telling the teacher, “if you have a vagina you’re a girl and if you have a penis you’re a boy.”

    The teacher then interjected, raising their voice to say that while the students may consider being cisgender the “norm” it is not the law.

    “You are talking about the fact that cisgender is the norm, that you identify with the sexual organ you were born with. That’s basically what you’re saying, which is really despicable.”

    This is what I'm talking about when I raise the paradox of intolerance with someone like you. (Now, I'm watching myself as I have been warned about being uncivil enough times here, ok Beasty?) The studentS (not singular as you say) opinion of trans individuals was called despicable, it was not about the girl who wanted to be called a cat.

    So when I bring up the paradox of intolerance, and talk about, the dangers of,

    "..for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols."

    I do not believe you argue rationally as you twist arguments to suit your narrative, (when you don't just ignore people that is).



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You keep bringing up the paradox of intolerance.

    That's fine, but who gets to decide what's tolerant and what's not tolerant?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Calling for rational discussion while pretending someone can identify as a cat and everyone else has to agree or they’re despicable and should leave the school.

    And that everyone, is a real danger coming from the left.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,417 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien


    Trans people exist.

    To say they do not exist is intolerant.

    To say that if you have a penis, you can only be a man is intolerant of trans men and trans women.

    To say that if you have a vulva, you can only be a woman is intolerant of trans men and women.

    To say that only 2 genders exist, despite being given evidence of the existence of trans men and trans women is intolerant.

    The people who are actually affected get to decide what's tolerant and what's tolerant. TERFs and the anti-trans movement want trans individuals to be not recognised by law, and in some cases have gone on to say they should be eradicated. That is intolerant, and that is why we need to shut down debate over whether trans people exist, whether there's more than two genders etc, etc, etc. because it will lead to violence and the suppression of the rights of trans individuals.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Much of what you wrote there has nothing to do with the case in question, nor the question I asked.

    But you did say this:

    The people who are actually affected get to decide what's tolerant and what's tolerant.

    If the people who are affected get to decide what's tolerant / intolerant, then that principle must necessarily also apply to me -- and people who hold the views that I do. If I'm affected by your own words, that you wish "to shut down debate" of certain opinions, then I too have a right to call that imposition upon me intolerant, because I'm directly affected by what you are advocating. That's the whole problem with the paradox of intolerance. Once you start trying to define who gets to decide, it becomes a self-defeating argument.

    I prefer John Rawls' conception of how to manage the question of tolerance. In his 1971 book, A Theory of Justice, Rawls argues that societies must tolerate the intolerant, otherwise society would itself become intolerant -- and therefore unjust. Rawls clarifies that there are circumstances in which it's legitimate to be intolerant of certain groups, and that's if the group poses a threat to the security of another person, or in cases where institutions of liberty are in danger.

    This seems to be a far better rationale than the one Popper conceived.

    When the theory is applied in this case, we can see that the student's comments did not pose a threat to the security or liberty of anyone else. Her opinion should be tolerated, even if it causes offense to some people. Because if tolerance is to mean anything at all, then it must apply the most to those whose opinions we most disagree.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,417 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien


    No, no, no. All that is affected is your viewpoint. Your life is not affected, certainly not to the same extent that lifesaving drugs are withheld from you (so called "puberty blockers".

    They are not the same at all, and to say you are being equally as oppressed as trans individuals because of how you think is completely untrue. They are completely different. Trans people are physically harmed everyday, due to their natural state of being (trans) whereas TERF's and the anti-trans movement are attacked online every time they spew their garbage, they are rarely physically harmed. Terf's and the anti-trans movement could just stop and it all goes away.

    Once again for those at the back: Trans individuals do not have the luxury of choice. TERF's and anti-trans people do, as they have chosen to be as they are.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,417 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien


    Humour me, where is the harm in agreeing with (more than likely) a passing fad of a 13 year old girl thinking she's a cat?

    The despicable comment was directed at the students saying there are only two genders btw, not the cat girl, much as the papers have spun it that way.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Okay look, every time I've tried to engage with the seriousness of your post, you resort back to the stock extrapolated reply about trans people -- as if I'm somehow linked to some anti-trans movement or something.

    I've been discussing this specific case, and your specific arguments about tolerance / intolerance of certain and specific viewpoints. Nothing more than that.

    If you keep zooming out to this extrapolated, generalised stock response, then there's little point for me to engage going forward.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,417 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien


    Do you believe in trans rights and equality for trans people and that trans issues should be taught in school alongside mainstream issues?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    If you want to go forward on something else we can still discuss the school curriculum you are allegedly so concerned with.



  • Advertisement
  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It would be improper for me to expand on general opinions on trans issues, as this would trespass on the purpose of this thread. For example: we already have a thread where trans rights impact women's sport. So I cannot just dilate on a massive subject in what is a very specific thread title.

    I'd rather stick to specific cases, such as the student example we have just been discussing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,417 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien


    Well, you brought up the statement,

    ” -- as if I'm somehow linked to some anti-trans movement or something.”

    I was just looking for clarification so I can see where you’re coming from.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,811 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    I think this story belongs more in the wokeism of the day or one of Fox news moral panic segment. It does make the teacher seem uncivil and the school looking a bit silly but unless there is state policy that mandates it it does look like an isolated case.

    Imagine someone saying this is the real danger of the Left now, a single case of a young child thinking they are a cat, it just undermines the seriousness of the Right Wing message.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,099 ✭✭✭✭chopperbyrne


    You'll need to define what you mean by trans rights, and what equalities are not given to trans people. What trans issues are you referring to when suggesting what should be taught in schools?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,099 ✭✭✭✭chopperbyrne


    You've missed the point entirely so.

    It's that a teacher verbally abused and threatened students for disagreeing with an ideology.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Because they’re not a cat and the harm is forcing others to humour them when everyone knows they’re not a cat.

    And believing there are only two genders is not despicable however way you try to pretend it is. It’s indoctrination and that teacher is the despicable one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,099 ✭✭✭✭chopperbyrne


    Let me clarify, all my questions were related to Ireland specifically.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The real danger isn’t a child believing their a cat, that’s a different issue.

    The dangers are teachers encouraging that delusion and forcing others to go along with that delusion or face repercussions. Abusing a child because they believe in science and biology and threatening to report them.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,417 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien


    Still not actually showing me where any harm is being committed..



Advertisement