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Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Epic and informative debate segment on the floor of the Missouri house about gender affirming care and fair sports initiatives.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,023 ✭✭✭El Gato De Negocios


    You have a low bar for what constitutes epic but anything that backs up your stance, regardless of how tenuous the grip will do I suppose. The chap on the lefts whole argument centered around kids with medical conditions such intersex or swyers syndrome.

    The trans athlete issue relates to men, actual men, deciding they are female and participating in female sporting events. I doubt any right thinking person would have an issue with people that have demonstrable medical conditions getting the help they need. Transgenderism as it relates to this topic is in no way, shape or form demonstrable.

    Yet another attempt from you at muddying the waters tbh.



  • Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Intersex and transgender are two entirely separate things. Most intersex people do not identify as transgender either (only 17% do).

    So when talking about biological sex, trans and advantages / disadvantages in sport, this is a red herring which, as the poster above said, only serves to distract and muddy the waters.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    The equal protection clause applies to all people not just the majority of people. Try again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Only waffle from you. Your personal incredulity aside there’s a war on trans people of all stripes. Including those with medical syndromes and the like. There is no distinction made in the rhetoric. No exceptions made in these dogwhistle culture war laws, as evidenced by the post above people think if it’s only a handful of trans people who fall through the cracks of a coarse political agenda then they are just **** outta luck civil rights wise, such as playing in sports.



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  • Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    This isn't a question of "culture wars", which is a wholly dismissive term.

    It's about the rights of women to compete fairly at a professional level in sport.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,023 ✭✭✭El Gato De Negocios


    You say war, most right thinking people say common sense approach. Thats not to say there arent sections of society that have really ugly, disgusting views about trans individuals, thats par for the course with every single group across the globe, but we arent discussing those issues in this thread, the issue being discussed in this thread is men transitioning during adulthood to a female identity and participating in sporting events with biological females.

    Most right thinking people feel this is wrong and the governing bodies of various sporting associations are beginning to see what the issues are and are taking steps to address said issues. No amount of attempts to shift the goal posts will change that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    That’s what they were debating as well yes. But you dismissed it out of hand.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 30,095 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Those who wish to use sports as a wedge issue to gain traction for more harmful views would find less success if there was not an opposing force so determined to pretend its not remotely an issue and fly in the face of fairly strong public opinion.

    I have no intention to pretend these nefarious actors don't exist - they very evidently do. No good is done by those who would castigate everyone who has issues with transgender women in female sport (which by most accounts seems to be a majority of people) as equal to them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,884 ✭✭✭Enduro


    Just a slight correction which I'm guessing you'll agree with. It's about everyone's right to compete fairly at every level in sport, irrespective of gender or level. Everyone should be entitled to the same standard of fair competition in sport.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Apropos do that nobody seemed to have any comment on thread to the Biden admins proposed trans sports rules? Which acknowledge ‘the remote issue of fairness?’ But without outright blanket banning trans people across the board like the trans panic movement wants pushed? 🤷🏻‍♂️



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,884 ✭✭✭Enduro


    This is an Irish website. Most of us aren't interested in discussing any of the moronic American culture war issues as it doesn't impact us here in Ireland.

    It's very unfortunate that sport in America is getting snarled up in the ridiculously childish American political discourse. I have so much sympathy for all the athletes getting caught up in this political nonsense, no matter which "side" they are on, or what their gender identity is. They're just being used as tools, by the likes of you, in a petty political squabble. As you've already demonstrated in this thread by your opinion that the female category should be abolished and cis-gender women should "evolve" to compete on an equal basis with males, fairness is being stamped over to try to score bizarre political "wins".

    Thankfully global sports governing bodies, and Irish sports governing bodies can govern their sports without having to worry about any of that nonsense.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    This thread OP is about an American swimming race. Try harder to cop out about the US



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,319 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,715 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    "Adam Roberge and Austin Killips win BWR North Carolina"

    One of these male people won the womens race but you wouldn't know anything was amiss from this article. It was by a good amount of time too but nothing to see here.





  • Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The injustice persists.

    Austin Killips has a long history of succeeding in women's cycling.

    And I repeat the question that I asked many pages before -- if there is no advantage, why is it that we only ever see stories like this, and not stories of biological females suddenly winning more men's competition events after they've transitioned?

    It only ever goes one way, and that's always against biological women. Stepping out from the academic-style debate that often happens on this subject, the real world effects we see are already coming through - and it's utterly wrong.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,715 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    Just a reminder of a thread I started 5 years ago about this subject. Interesting to see how the debate has changed. Jokes allowed then. And the same people who were saying it would never happen that men would take over women's sports are still saying the same thing despite many many examples




  • Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Well, it's worse than that. The argument has shifted from "it would never happen" to "there is nothing wrong with it, get with the times".

    Outright dismissal that there is no advantage, and that is nothing more than a faith-based belief.

    Although part of me is cynical, in that I think many advocates understand perfectly well that there is an advantage but will pretend that advantage doesn't exist because it contravenes the larger narrative they want to believe.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 351 ✭✭Me_Grapes


    You won't get an acknowledgement of this cyclist, or of former members of the US women's football team (the elite players of their time) being hammered 12-0 by Lee Trundle and Co (not the elite players of their time to put it mildly) recently, from the usual suspects.

    They will only chime back up when they find some wishy-washy article or YouTube video, peddling pseudo scientific psychobabble which appeals to their illogical world view.



  • Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Another case emerging from the UK, in which half of the women's angling team quit the England team after a biological male was selected to join their team.

    I'm starting to get the impression that more and more women are becoming more confident about speaking up for their right to fairness and equality.

    Anglers have quit the England team after a trans woman was called up to join the women’s squad of a major competition next month.

    Three members of the six-strong squad stepped down after Becky Lee Birtwhistle Hodges, who was born male, was chosen for the Home Nations shore fishing championship.

    There has been opposition to Birtwhistle Hodges, a former rugby player, competing with the England angling team since 2018 when she was first selected, amid concerns that she has an unfair strength advantage.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Some people are more obsessed with "who won"

    Others of us care about who gets to play.

    Modern day oppression. Wonder if she will ever play soccer again if some people have their way.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,978 ✭✭✭Jack Daw



    Nothing stopping her from playing soccer again.She can play recreationally, she can play on a boys team or open category team.These rules stop nobody from playing any sport, they stop a very tiny minority of people from competing in a a particular gender/sex category.

    I go cycling and canoeing on a regular basis and there is nothing any lawmaker or any sporting body can do can do to stop me from participating in these activities , same applies with the case highlighted in your video above.

    She still gets to play soccer if she wishes, nobody has taken away that right from her.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Nothing stopping her from playing soccer again.She can play recreationally, she can play on a boys team or open category team.These rules stop nobody from playing any sport, they stop a very tiny minority of people from competing in a a particular gender/sex category.

    Your downplaying of it doesn't match the interview.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 171 ✭✭200mg


    You do not have a right to play at a competitive level in any sport. Time is the easy one that stops you from competing. Or is Time against your human rights ? Another easy one is age should 16 year-olds allow professional 28 year-olds to play against them. Should weight class be abandoned in sport allowing 8 stone boxers to have to fight super heavy weights.



  • Posts: 542 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck.....

    Untitled Image




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,978 ✭✭✭Jack Daw



    The interview is irrelevant.

    You don't make decisions that have negative affects on many people to keep a very tiny minority of people happy.That is the way sensible people approach a decision like this.Most difficult decisions in society are trade-offs between 2 decisions with negative consequences for somebody, you pick the choice that has the least negative consequences.

    Nothing is stopping anyone who is transgender from participating in any sport.You can participate in any sport you want recreationally.

    The same theory behind stopping a 21 year competing in competitive under 16 sport applies to rules prevent a transgender woman from competing against women.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,419 ✭✭✭Backstreet Moyes


    Some people are more concerned with fairness and the safety of people who play sports.

    Should a struggling heavyweight boxer be allowed fight a lightweight.

    Should an adult be allowed play in underage sports.

    Should biological men be allowed to play in women's sports.

    The answer to all of the above is no because of fairness and safety.

    Are all of the above allowed compete in sports, the answer is yes.

    Are any of them being oppressed from playing sports the answer is no.

    The safety of people is more important than the feelings of a minority of people who are free to compete if they want to.

    Thankfully people are starting to speak up and this nonsense is being dealt with.



  • Posts: 1,656 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The people advocating for this nonsense are not interested in sports.

    Their goal is to set precedents. If they can trick or pressure society into accepting males in womens spaces, they will then use this as a gotcha proof that males who identify as women really are actual women. That's their goal, to erase womanhood. They couldn't give a hoot about sports or sporting fairness.

    This is why no exceptions or compromises should be made. No matter whether these male athletes 'blocked' puberty, lowered their testosterone levels to a specific level, or anything else.



  • Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Personal anecdotes cannot be used to dictate sport policy.

    And those "some people" who are obsessed about winning happen to include female athletes, who in many cases have trained their entire lives to compete at this level.

    You cannot blithely dismiss that significance on the back of an anecdote and a total disregard for women's right to fairness and equality in sport.

    And blaming women for causing "oppression" at a time their sport is being undermined is the worst form of gaslighting on this subject.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,023 ✭✭✭El Gato De Negocios


    Pretty shocking that this happened but the comment from the team doctor at the time

    Mats Börjesson, who was Sweden’s team doctor in 2011, said Fifa demanded testing following rumours about Equatorial Guinea’s team.

    “The sports world has tried to create fairness for girls so that they don’t train their whole lives and then someone comes in with an unreasonable advantage,” he said.

    Fairness and unreasonable advantage. Thats the whole thing summed up in a nutshell.



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