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The Advantages & Disadvantages in a society with Full Employment

  • 04-06-2023 01:35PM
    #1
    Posts: 24,207 ✭✭✭✭ Elijah CoolS Teacher


    Ireland has almost 100% employment, most people who are able and willing to work can find employment. It is terrific for individuals & the families they might be supporting, but on a societal level there are a couple of downsides.

    The most obvious is in service industries, front line careers, and the lower paid sectors. We need more medical staff, more people to drive buses, more people to work in hospitality, and a lot more.

    Have been reading an article or two about this, such as…

    In people’s experience, where is there a shortfall in various jobs, and how is it affecting society?



«1

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,634 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    Medical shortage has been going on quite a while now and is a skills shortage.Hospitality has been kept afloat by immigrants workers for some time also.

    Only major immediate negative effect that I can see is in construction. With everyone getting degrees for the "smart economy" nobody can wire a plug.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,743 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Lots of hospitality businesses are choosing to work short weeks. Your choices for eating out on a Tuesday can be quite limited.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭growleaves


    Construction careers are a casualty of boom-bust shenanigans. Ordinary people want stability primarily.



  • Posts: 24,207 ✭✭✭✭ Elijah CoolS Teacher


    The smart economy is powered by electricity, and skilled technicians & engineers are required for installation & maintenance of the infrastructure that provides that. There needs to be more opportunities of career paths that begin with becoming an electrician, which is suited to younger limbs, with the possibility to study for less of a physical role in electrical & allied engineering roles.

    I see in England they are starting some medical careers as apprenticeships, which can only be a very good thing.

    Beginning with a more physical role, learning along the way, and ending up with a somewhat more cerebral role might suit a lot of people as they progress in life and fill some of the shortfalls along the way. But as regards doctors we presently need to fast track as many of these as possible.



  • Posts: 24,207 ✭✭✭✭ Elijah CoolS Teacher


    I notice that, not that I can currently afford eating out, but I see on advertisements and notices there are many “part-time” restaurants. Monday used to be the one day many restaurants closed, often to deep clean the place and do repairs etc.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 13,150 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    Full employment is definitely not spread evenly, plenty of shortages of labour in skilled roles

    I've definitely noticed a bit of a drop in the level of service from hotels and restaurants. Not so much a lack of professionalism, more that they seem to have new people starting all the time and they never get a chance to work up to being a pro at the job

    My guess is that those kinds of businesses are churning through people because they keep leaving for better prospects.

    Overall I think it's a good thing, the service and hospitality industries have largely thrived off treating their employees like a disposable workforce, great to see the tables being turned and those employees demanding better wages and conditions

    At the same time I think it's going to reveal that a lot of the hospitality businesses in Ireland had a pretty shaky business model to begin with and will have to majorly adapt to survive (or just not survive, as most of them seem to do anyway every few years)

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,947 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    Full employment but very poor pay in many cases and poor performance from the workers. I am an unpaid carer for a family member and have paid carers from a private company coming in under a HSE homecare package. Although there are a small number of extremely good carers, there are far too many useless, stupid, unreliable, dangerous, incompetent people (both carers and their managers) in this sector. Also foreign nationals with very poor English.

    If I had a choice I wouldn't allow them to care for a goldfish, let alone a person. Then again, carers are paid 12-14 euro per hour while their employer charges the HSE/ taxpayer 2-3 times that so monkeys and peanuts come to mind. If they were paid more the sector would undoubtedly attract a better calibre of person but I haven't given much thought to the knock on effects of that e.g. would other sectors suffer a worker shortage if carers were paid better or if everyone was paid better, how would that affect inflation etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 968 ✭✭✭Str8outtaWuhan


    Full employment with the % we pay to long term unemployed is a bit of a joke. What % of "fully" employed aren't subsidised by the state excluding universal payments.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,338 ✭✭✭gameoverdude


    Post edited by Boards.ie: Paul on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,173 ✭✭✭.Donegal.


    People in long term unemployment who are nominated to go on things like people first for 12 months aren’t counted as being unemployed even though they are. I wonder what the employment figure would be if they were also counted as unemployed.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,867 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp



    I think many places are realising that they can't get workers any more at €12 - €14 per hour. The HSE are recruiting carers in the South East on €18 per hour and €36 per hour if you work on a Sunday. I've seen other advertisements that state the starting salary is €15.58 per hour. They are HSE positions so this means HSE pension, holidays etc.

    HSE seeking Health Care Support Assistants

    (formerly known as Home Helps)


     The HSE/South East Community Healthcare is looking for Health Care Support Assistants (formerly known as Home Helps) to provide personal care to clients in their own home.


     There are permanent whole-time and permanent part-time positions available to work in community healthcare supports provided by the HSE in counties Carlow, Kilkenny, South Tipperary, Waterford and Wexford.


     Candidates for the Health Care Support Assistants will require a Further Education and Training Course (QQI) Level 5 qualification in the following two modules – Care Skills and Care of the Elderly. Commitment will also be required from successful employees to complete the remaining modules within their probation period. 


     A minimum rate of €18 per hour (and €36 per hour on a Sunday and Bank Holiday) is payable for the position. Travel expenses are paid for all mileage incurred from base or home (shortest distance) and are in line with HSE National Financial Regulations. Manual Handling and online training will be provided during induction training for successful candidates. This employment may form part of career pathway to Registered General Nursing if the position holder is interested.


     Drawing attention to their ongoing recruitment campaign, Bridget Farrell (General Manager/Older Persons Services, HSE/South East Community Healthcare) says:


     “We need Health Care Support Assistants in counties Carlow, Kilkenny, South Tipperary, Waterford and Wexford. The overall objective of the HSE’s Health Care Support for Older Persons service is to care for and maintain people in their own home. This involves Health Care Support Assistants liaising with Public Health Nurses and other health care professionals. Health Care Support Assistant (HCSA) tasks include assisting clients in personal care and essential household tasks pertaining to the client.” 




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,338 ✭✭✭gameoverdude




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,867 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    €18 per hour isn't that bad considering you only need a Level 5 QQI qualification for it. And an aptitude for it but money can't buy that.

    It's a good bit better than the €12 - €14 p/h mentioned earlier.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,338 ✭✭✭gameoverdude


    I kinda seeing what you're saying, but 18 euros an hour is rubbish in Dublin.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 13,150 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    It's not terrible money, but that's around €36k per year if working full time

    That might have been a decent salary 5 years ago but nowadays you could easily burn two thirds of that in rent alone

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,867 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Agreed, but you'll probably find that most shop jobs, warehouse jobs etc. start off at a good bit below the €18 per hour.

    And €18 is the starting point on the scale. It goes up every year. It's not great if you are skilled but it's better than a lot of jobs out there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,114 ✭✭✭Thespoofer




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,867 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    I'm not suggesting it's a career everyone should go into. I just posted it to show that the money for the Healthcare Home Suport staff is going up from the really poor €12 - €14 per hour to a slightly better €18 per hour.

    I can see the money for all healthcare workers going up because there's a critical shortage of workers. And highly skilled people like podiatrists etc. can't be gotten for the money that's on offer.

    Anyway, the disadvantages of a society with full employment is that employers don't have much choice and can end up having to employ very lazy or stupid workers as it's becoming a choice between that or leave the post empty. And leaving it empty isn't always an option.

    I also reckon the quality on new builds will drop back to the shyte standard they were between 2003 and 2008.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,338 ✭✭✭gameoverdude




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,338 ✭✭✭gameoverdude


    I agree. Really important job with crap wages.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 13,150 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    I hear ya, I just think it's crazy that what was a decent wage a few years back is now barely enough to survive, particularly if you have family

    I remember starting my second job 10 years ago on €33k and thinking I'd made it in life. I was able to save nearly a grand a month after rent and bills were taken care of, I doubt anyone in that salary is managing that now

    It's great to see health workers getting better salaries, but the annoying part is that it's already been eroded by inflation. At best they're back to where they were two years ago, more likely they're still earning less when inflation is accounted for

    I can sympathise with the service workers who don't give a crap about customer service. They got fed sh!t by their employers for meager wages and were expected to be thankful they have a job, finally the tables have turned

    And I'm always a bit suspicious about all these price increases we're seeing being blamed on wage increases. I don't see baristas, waiters and hotel porters driving around in BMWs (the valets do, but it isn't their car).

    I feel like a lot of businesses saw costs go up by 5% and raised prices by 15% and kept the extra as profits. Look at the hotel sector for example, they lobbied for a VAT rate cut and immediately raised room rates after getting it

    If I was an employee in one of those hotels and saw that going on, I'd be wondering why none of that extra money was making its way down to me as a significant salary increase. I might not be too inclined to put in any extra effort while I was pondering that question 😏

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,634 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    Way off,157,000. Presumably most or all of them are genuinely disabled in some way. It's not a choice.



  • Posts: 24,207 ✭✭✭✭ Elijah CoolS Teacher


    I have seen quality of work going down, and elements of laziness set it. It’s kind of par for the course, human nature. I’m retired, but I know I’d likely be similar. I can understand why in some coffee shops they nearly throw the coffee at you, 🤣 they’re having the pittance virtually thrown at them by their employers.

    It goes beyond the hospitality sector, I’ve had to encounter many medical receptionists in recent times, mostly they don’t even bother signing an email or letter, and use minimal wording, eg:

    ”yes, appointment 20/11/2023 3.30pm, be aware full consultation charge for cancellation after 48 hours”

    And that’s if you are lucky to get any reply at all. It seems generally now, any old standard will do for an employee, once they don’t steal from the petty cash.

    During times of somewhat leaner employment, people have to up their game a little and keep relatively competitive with others.



  • Posts: 24,207 ✭✭✭✭ Elijah CoolS Teacher


    I also see on some WFH threads that some such workers claim to have their day’s work done in 3 hours. If this is in any way commonplace that would gall workers who are in their feet 8 hours (and sometimes more) a day who by nature of their hands-on duties can’t “get all my work done in a few hours and play computer games & drink coffee for rest of day”. Workers who have to work through their working day could be looking at this and thinking how good it would be to stay home in the sofa, do their little bit, get paid, and much of rest of their time could be spent on hobbies or social media. No wonder it’s getting more difficult for people to take up front line employment.



  • Posts: 24,207 ✭✭✭✭ Elijah CoolS Teacher


    Ireland has the lowest rate of employment in the EU of people with disabilities. Of course disabilities are hugely diverse, ranging from vision impairment, mobility disorders to cognitive disabilities, so there would be limits of employability depending on the particular condition. A paraplegic wheelchair user without any other issues is probably the most easily accommodated as they can do a huge selection of roles on many many levels within their talent set once the work environment can make the requisite physical adaptions. Somebody with a cognitive deficit is probably more likely to be exploited in low paid roles.

    Going by the stars it would appear Irish workplaces are less flexible with adapting the work environment, but there may be other factors at play, like people losing out on education, maybe in circumstances where educational institutions have not adapted well to various needs.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,200 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    Correct. A lot of people had quite a soft time "working from home" during covid. We all know someone like the Bord Failte employee when the first lockdown was on and people were not allowed move more than 3km from home - busy working even though there were no tourists in the country!


    There are also lots of people working at the wrong thing. For example, instead of building houses, we have  over 200 highly paid Irish language staff in the European institutions today translating all technical documents in to Irish, all at taxpayers expense. IRISH F.F.S., ; nobody reads technical documents in Irish.

    Nobody even reads a newspaper in Irish ffs : there is not one or demand for one.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Paul on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,114 ✭✭✭Thespoofer


    Good for you. Buy you know, we all have to start somewhere, before we can work our way up to the dizzying heights of earnings you're on.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,338 ✭✭✭gameoverdude


    Of course. Started out in roches stores. Got educated and built up from there.

    I'm not from a wealthy family. No way.

    I had to work and the amount of time my parents had to put in for us I will forever be grateful. I also had do stuff myself. Personal responsibility.



  • Posts: 24,207 ✭✭✭✭ Elijah CoolS Teacher


    Back in the day people tended to “work their way up”, it was even more commonplace in my parents’ and grandparents’ day. People learned as they earned, and there were people to fill the junior roles such as filing, making the tea, doing book-keeping entries, finding out how the industry works from the bottom up. Wages started low and increased. Of course there was the huge anomaly, eg in the public service, where women were paid less than men, and had to leave when they got married.

    Women also were denied mortgages. My single aunt, well established as a staff officer in the civil service and a good saver and a minimal spender, saw a bungalow in Sutton she could afford, but was denied the mortgage by the bank, even though she could have afforded the repayments. This was decades ago, but women weren’t trusted with their money.

    Nowadays, it’s almost impossible for anyone who is early in their careers, and hasn’t won the Lotto, to be afforded mortgages, so it’s natural people will tend to try and grasp the biggest salaries they can from the outset if home ownership is the main goal.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 13,150 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    I've heard the term episodic career recently, basically instead of starting a job and staying in that career path for life, people change job and even career path several times throughout their working life

    I think it's becoming more popular in the past few years, plenty of people have been looking to change career path to something more rewarding or with a better work life balance

    It seems like the logical outcome of how employment has been going the past few decades. Any shred of companies showing loyalty to their employees died in the financial crisis IMO. They're happy to hire a bunch of employees for a potential project and then dump them when it doesn't pan out

    Long story short, I think the idea of working your way up in a company is dead and gone

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Paul on

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



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