The Advantages & Disadvantages in a society with Full Employment

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-downside-of-full-employment/

Ireland has almost 100% employment, most people who are able and willing to work can find employment. It is terrific for individuals & the families they might be supporting, but on a societal level there are a couple of downsides.

The most obvious is in service industries, front line careers, and the lower paid sectors. We need more medical staff, more people to drive buses, more people to work in hospitality, and a lot more.

Have been reading an article or two about this, such as…

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-downside-of-full-employment/

In people’s experience, where is there a shortfall in various jobs, and how is it affecting society?

kneemos

Medical shortage has been going on quite a while now and is a skills shortage.Hospitality has been kept afloat by immigrants workers for some time also.

Only major immediate negative effect that I can see is in construction. With everyone getting degrees for the "smart economy" nobody can wire a plug.

Mrs OBumble

Lots of hospitality businesses are choosing to work short weeks. Your choices for eating out on a Tuesday can be quite limited.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120676816#Comment_120676816

Construction careers are a casualty of boom-bust shenanigans. Ordinary people want stability primarily.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120676816#Comment_120676816

The smart economy is powered by electricity, and skilled technicians & engineers are required for installation & maintenance of the infrastructure that provides that. There needs to be more opportunities of career paths that begin with becoming an electrician, which is suited to younger limbs, with the possibility to study for less of a physical role in electrical & allied engineering roles.

I see in England they are starting some medical careers as apprenticeships, which can only be a very good thing.

Beginning with a more physical role, learning along the way, and ending up with a somewhat more cerebral role might suit a lot of people as they progress in life and fill some of the shortfalls along the way. But as regards doctors we presently need to fast track as many of these as possible.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120676845#Comment_120676845

I notice that, not that I can currently afford eating out, but I see on advertisements and notices there are many “part-time” restaurants. Monday used to be the one day many restaurants closed, often to deep clean the place and do repairs etc.

the_amazing_raisin

Full employment is definitely not spread evenly, plenty of shortages of labour in skilled roles

I've definitely noticed a bit of a drop in the level of service from hotels and restaurants. Not so much a lack of professionalism, more that they seem to have new people starting all the time and they never get a chance to work up to being a pro at the job

My guess is that those kinds of businesses are churning through people because they keep leaving for better prospects.

Overall I think it's a good thing, the service and hospitality industries have largely thrived off treating their employees like a disposable workforce, great to see the tables being turned and those employees demanding better wages and conditions

At the same time I think it's going to reveal that a lot of the hospitality businesses in Ireland had a pretty shaky business model to begin with and will have to majorly adapt to survive (or just not survive, as most of them seem to do anyway every few years)

BrianD3

Full employment but very poor pay in many cases and poor performance from the workers. I am an unpaid carer for a family member and have paid carers from a private company coming in under a HSE homecare package. Although there are a small number of extremely good carers, there are far too many useless, stupid, unreliable, dangerous, incompetent people (both carers and their managers) in this sector. Also foreign nationals with very poor English.

If I had a choice I wouldn't allow them to care for a goldfish, let alone a person. Then again, carers are paid 12-14 euro per hour while their employer charges the HSE/ taxpayer 2-3 times that so monkeys and peanuts come to mind. If they were paid more the sector would undoubtedly attract a better calibre of person but I haven't given much thought to the knock on effects of that e.g. would other sectors suffer a worker shortage if carers were paid better or if everyone was paid better, how would that affect inflation etc.

Str8outtaWuhan

Full employment with the % we pay to long term unemployed is a bit of a joke. What % of "fully" employed aren't subsidised by the state excluding universal payments.

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058299140/the-advantages-disadvantages-in-a-society-with-full-employment

Probably because shops don't accept dollars?

.Donegal.

People in long term unemployment who are nominated to go on things like people first for 12 months aren’t counted as being unemployed even though they are. I wonder what the employment figure would be if they were also counted as unemployed.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120676936#Comment_120676936

I think many places are realising that they can't get workers any more at €12 - €14 per hour. The HSE are recruiting carers in the South East on €18 per hour and €36 per hour if you work on a Sunday. I've seen other advertisements that state the starting salary is €15.58 per hour. They are HSE positions so this means HSE pension, holidays etc.

HSE seeking Health Care Support Assistants

(formerly known as Home Helps)

 The HSE/South East Community Healthcare is looking for Health Care Support Assistants (formerly known as Home Helps) to provide personal care to clients in their own home.

 There are permanent whole-time and permanent part-time positions available to work in community healthcare supports provided by the HSE in counties Carlow, Kilkenny, South Tipperary, Waterford and Wexford.

 Candidates for the Health Care Support Assistants will require a Further Education and Training Course (QQI) Level 5 qualification in the following two modules – Care Skills and Care of the Elderly. Commitment will also be required from successful employees to complete the remaining modules within their probation period. 

 A minimum rate of €18 per hour (and €36 per hour on a Sunday and Bank Holiday) is payable for the position. Travel expenses are paid for all mileage incurred from base or home (shortest distance) and are in line with HSE National Financial Regulations. Manual Handling and online training will be provided during induction training for successful candidates. This employment may form part of career pathway to Registered General Nursing if the position holder is interested.

 Drawing attention to their ongoing recruitment campaign, Bridget Farrell (General Manager/Older Persons Services, HSE/South East Community Healthcare) says:

 “We need Health Care Support Assistants in counties Carlow, Kilkenny, South Tipperary, Waterford and Wexford. The overall objective of the HSE’s Health Care Support for Older Persons service is to care for and maintain people in their own home. This involves Health Care Support Assistants liaising with Public Health Nurses and other health care professionals. Health Care Support Assistant (HCSA) tasks include assisting clients in personal care and essential household tasks pertaining to the client.” 

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120677625#Comment_120677625

That's pathetic money.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120677650#Comment_120677650

€18 per hour isn't that bad considering you only need a Level 5 QQI qualification for it. And an aptitude for it but money can't buy that.

It's a good bit better than the €12 - €14 p/h mentioned earlier.

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120677657#Comment_120677657

I kinda seeing what you're saying, but 18 euros an hour is rubbish in Dublin.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120677657#Comment_120677657

It's not terrible money, but that's around €36k per year if working full time

That might have been a decent salary 5 years ago but nowadays you could easily burn two thirds of that in rent alone

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120677669#Comment_120677669

Agreed, but you'll probably find that most shop jobs, warehouse jobs etc. start off at a good bit below the €18 per hour.

And €18 is the starting point on the scale. It goes up every year. It's not great if you are skilled but it's better than a lot of jobs out there.

Thespoofer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120677650#Comment_120677650

How much are you on ?

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120677675#Comment_120677675

I'm not suggesting it's a career everyone should go into. I just posted it to show that the money for the Healthcare Home Suport staff is going up from the really poor €12 - €14 per hour to a slightly better €18 per hour.

I can see the money for all healthcare workers going up because there's a critical shortage of workers. And highly skilled people like podiatrists etc. can't be gotten for the money that's on offer.

Anyway, the disadvantages of a society with full employment is that employers don't have much choice and can end up having to employ very lazy or stupid workers as it's becoming a choice between that or leave the post empty. And leaving it empty isn't always an option.

I also reckon the quality on new builds will drop back to the shyte standard they were between 2003 and 2008.

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120677685#Comment_120677685

A lot more. But I earned it

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120677689#Comment_120677689

I agree. Really important job with crap wages.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120677689#Comment_120677689

I hear ya, I just think it's crazy that what was a decent wage a few years back is now barely enough to survive, particularly if you have family

I remember starting my second job 10 years ago on €33k and thinking I'd made it in life. I was able to save nearly a grand a month after rent and bills were taken care of, I doubt anyone in that salary is managing that now

It's great to see health workers getting better salaries, but the annoying part is that it's already been eroded by inflation. At best they're back to where they were two years ago, more likely they're still earning less when inflation is accounted for

I can sympathise with the service workers who don't give a crap about customer service. They got fed sh!t by their employers for meager wages and were expected to be thankful they have a job, finally the tables have turned

And I'm always a bit suspicious about all these price increases we're seeing being blamed on wage increases. I don't see baristas, waiters and hotel porters driving around in BMWs (the valets do, but it isn't their car).

I feel like a lot of businesses saw costs go up by 5% and raised prices by 15% and kept the extra as profits. Look at the hotel sector for example, they lobbied for a VAT rate cut and immediately raised room rates after getting it

If I was an employee in one of those hotels and saw that going on, I'd be wondering why none of that extra money was making its way down to me as a significant salary increase. I might not be too inclined to put in any extra effort while I was pondering that question 😏

kneemos

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120678583#Comment_120678583

Way off,157,000. Presumably most or all of them are genuinely disabled in some way. It's not a choice.

I have seen quality of work going down, and elements of laziness set it. It’s kind of par for the course, human nature. I’m retired, but I know I’d likely be similar. I can understand why in some coffee shops they nearly throw the coffee at you, 🤣 they’re having the pittance virtually thrown at them by their employers.

It goes beyond the hospitality sector, I’ve had to encounter many medical receptionists in recent times, mostly they don’t even bother signing an email or letter, and use minimal wording, eg:

”yes, appointment 20/11/2023 3.30pm, be aware full consultation charge for cancellation after 48 hours”

And that’s if you are lucky to get any reply at all. It seems generally now, any old standard will do for an employee, once they don’t steal from the petty cash.

During times of somewhat leaner employment, people have to up their game a little and keep relatively competitive with others.

I also see on some WFH threads that some such workers claim to have their day’s work done in 3 hours. If this is in any way commonplace that would gall workers who are in their feet 8 hours (and sometimes more) a day who by nature of their hands-on duties can’t “get all my work done in a few hours and play computer games & drink coffee for rest of day”. Workers who have to work through their working day could be looking at this and thinking how good it would be to stay home in the sofa, do their little bit, get paid, and much of rest of their time could be spent on hobbies or social media. No wonder it’s getting more difficult for people to take up front line employment.

https://www.socialjustice.ie/article/employment-and-disability

Ireland has the lowest rate of employment in the EU of people with disabilities. Of course disabilities are hugely diverse, ranging from vision impairment, mobility disorders to cognitive disabilities, so there would be limits of employability depending on the particular condition. A paraplegic wheelchair user without any other issues is probably the most easily accommodated as they can do a huge selection of roles on many many levels within their talent set once the work environment can make the requisite physical adaptions. Somebody with a cognitive deficit is probably more likely to be exploited in low paid roles.

Going by the stars it would appear Irish workplaces are less flexible with adapting the work environment, but there may be other factors at play, like people losing out on education, maybe in circumstances where educational institutions have not adapted well to various needs.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120679053#Comment_120679053

Correct. A lot of people had quite a soft time "working from home" during covid. We all know someone like the Bord Failte employee when the first lockdown was on and people were not allowed move more than 3km from home - busy working even though there were no tourists in the country!

There are also lots of people working at the wrong thing. For example, instead of building houses, we have  over 200 highly paid Irish language staff in the European institutions today translating all technical documents in to Irish, all at taxpayers expense. IRISH F.F.S., ; nobody reads technical documents in Irish.

Nobody even reads a newspaper in Irish ffs : there is not one or demand for one.

Thespoofer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120677715#Comment_120677715

Good for you. Buy you know, we all have to start somewhere, before we can work our way up to the dizzying heights of earnings you're on.

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120679250#Comment_120679250

Of course. Started out in roches stores. Got educated and built up from there.

I'm not from a wealthy family. No way.

I had to work and the amount of time my parents had to put in for us I will forever be grateful. I also had do stuff myself. Personal responsibility.

Back in the day people tended to “work their way up”, it was even more commonplace in my parents’ and grandparents’ day. People learned as they earned, and there were people to fill the junior roles such as filing, making the tea, doing book-keeping entries, finding out how the industry works from the bottom up. Wages started low and increased. Of course there was the huge anomaly, eg in the public service, where women were paid less than men, and had to leave when they got married.

Women also were denied mortgages. My single aunt, well established as a staff officer in the civil service and a good saver and a minimal spender, saw a bungalow in Sutton she could afford, but was denied the mortgage by the bank, even though she could have afforded the repayments. This was decades ago, but women weren’t trusted with their money.

Nowadays, it’s almost impossible for anyone who is early in their careers, and hasn’t won the Lotto, to be afforded mortgages, so it’s natural people will tend to try and grasp the biggest salaries they can from the outset if home ownership is the main goal.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120679304#Comment_120679304

I've heard the term episodic career recently, basically instead of starting a job and staying in that career path for life, people change job and even career path several times throughout their working life

I think it's becoming more popular in the past few years, plenty of people have been looking to change career path to something more rewarding or with a better work life balance

It seems like the logical outcome of how employment has been going the past few decades. Any shred of companies showing loyalty to their employees died in the financial crisis IMO. They're happy to hire a bunch of employees for a potential project and then dump them when it doesn't pan out

Long story short, I think the idea of working your way up in a company is dead and gone

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120679420#Comment_120679420

Just looking back on my thread creation history here. I started work in public service 1979, it’s now such a far cry from that 🤣 Back then it was seen as a big social stigma to change jobs frequently. Changing after two years was perhaps mildly embarrassing (“why did you not stick it out a bit longer?”), 5 years was acceptable to prove you are a “stable personality”, but 8 or 10 years preferable. My late mother would look askance at some profiles on LinkedIn where some people change contract every 6 months, and have not held a job longer than 2 years. Mind you, I know somebody like that who indeed has feet of clay, as it were. Most people manage stints of 4 or more years.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120727995#Comment_120727995

Yeah my late father probably had two or three jobs in his professional career (I'm not going to count his stint as a part time postman over Christmas)

There's definitely different attitudes across generations, I think the concept of sticking it out in a job you didn't really find interesting because it was a "solid" job

Only fecking solid job these days is a grave digger, and that's only until Elon Musk says it's better to compost people into fertiliser or something 🙄

(Incidentally if you want a fast track to a good life just try to do the opposite of what that clown says to do)

I still think there's a feeling that if you see someone who changes jobs every year or two they're a mercenary. I've definitely ended up hiring a couple of people who I reckoned would be gone in under two years and I was correct in 2 out of 3 cases

And before you say anything smart, I was nice to them, I didn't try to drive them off or anything 😜

One thing I've noticed is that the mercenary attitude is pretty prevalent in East Asian countries. That's not a swipe at them by any means, I've worked with a lot of folks from those countries and the job market there is absolutely cutthroat. You'll literally be dragged into a room some day and be told you're fired with no notice and to grab your stuff and leave immediately. If you're lucky you may get a week or two of severance pay

This is the reason why I say this career of changing jobs is the natural outcome of treating workers like they're disposable. If a company shows no loyalty to it's workforce, then they should expect none in return

iniscealtra

Local GP’s in my area are not open to new patients. So people can’t change GP’s if they move and are not on a medical card.

Local creche finds it hard to get staff as pay is better in local factory or other areas.

A visitor I was talking to who hadn’t been to Ireland for 20 years was surprised by how rich everyone was as in all houses were well maintained etc. No visible signs of poverty.

Also suprised by the lack of tourist accomodation.

Greyfox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120727995#Comment_120727995

I'm nearly 7 years in my current role, no real career progression but it's grand and I never feel like I hate my job. The fact that I stayed so long with no progression looks bad on my CV as recruiters expect you to be progressing quickly or moving on

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120729393#Comment_120729393

It seems crazy pressure. There’s many jobs where career “progression” isn’t really a thing, eg nursing. Yes one can be one a “nurse practitioner” but a lot of nurses “progress” out of nursing and into a business role most often in a pharmaceutical or medical device company. It’s a very different world to when I began work, better in so many ways but it comes with way more pressures and not everyone is built for that, yet they can do a splendid job at what they have always been doing.

One thing really puzzles me. Daytime traffic can be pretty crazy, driving the short distance to Dundrum traffic can vibe to a virtual standstill. If, as I heard in the radio yesterday, 60% of “office workers” are working from home, who are all the people driving cars around?

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120729998#Comment_120729998

Working from home people doing the shopping, collecting kids etc.

griffin100

I’ve been trying to hire staff into the public service over recent months across a range of grades (€40k - €100k) and as well as a shortage of available experienced people there’s also a real inertia out there with a lot of people unwilling to take on new challenges even for more money. There seems to be a lot of mid career people who have a hybrid working model and as said elsewhere in the thread like the few days a week at home of unsupervised / low key work and don’t want to change that or take the risk that a new job might mean more work. Most of the applicants for jobs I’m advertising at the minute are not Irish.

There’s also a real disconnect between the salaries being asked for by some people and the salaries on offer. I have a friend trying to recruit someone into a construction H&S support role that only requires a couple of years experience and everyone interviewed so far wants over €100k - that’s not sustainable for a small contractor who has to then hire you out onto a clients site as most clients won’t pay those rates for the type of role in question.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120730040#Comment_120730040

Jaysus, 100k, is that in Dublin?

griffin100

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120730855#Comment_120730855

Yes it is. I was part of an interview panel for similar jobs in the SE and they had better success. I think the Dublin factor is an issue as well as the shortage of people.

Cushtie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120730040#Comment_120730040

Are these jobs on public jobs also, or what's the story there? would you mind PM me some details?

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120730040#Comment_120730040

I work in H&S and wouldn't dream of taking a job in the construction sector if I'd any other choice. Who are the first people to be let go when there's a crunch, yep, the H&S guy/gal. It's not the most secure sector. About a year and a half ago I took a job in the public sector. Less money but better working conditions and as secure as one can get.

To be honest, I thought we'd be knee deep in a bad recession right now. That's pretty much why I moved. That said, I'm not sorry I moved into the public sector.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120730028#Comment_120730028

But I thought the idea was that they were paid to actually work, not collect the kids, do the shopping, household chores? I’d love to know above these soft cushy u supervised jobs where you are paid to look after your own household affairs whilst doing a bit to tick employee boxes to get paid 🧐 If so many people take the p1$$ it will ruin it for those who actually put in the time their employer pays them for. That’s when you find some employers requesting more appearances at the office.

ILoveYourVibes

The only one I can think of is inflation.

I haven't found customer service to be that bad except for a couple of times. And I can let that go.

Was custumer service in hairdressers and shops etc a bit better 5 yrs ago yeah sure. But I can let that go.

SuperBowserWorld

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120731827#Comment_120731827

I think anyone who has a good job + pension + short commute is the real winner regardless of Covid/IT benefits. Working from home takes real discipline, but long hours commuting is an absolute waste of lives.

People who don't work productively from home are kidding themselves and their employers. And that means looking after kids etc etc when you are being paid for X hours work. Or not communicating well with co workers and being an anonymous unhelpful and unprofessional dick in the virtual office.

I know of some cases where “new-in-pandemic wfh employees” fell into severe addiction with a bad outcome; of course the issue would be pre-existing but the 24 hours by oneself at home provided opportunities to do full irreversible damage.

On the other note, the sheer amount of daytime traffic these times would indicate to me that there is a cohort doing “portable work”.

Employers could be iffy if they observe they have a cohort of workers having a sporadic delivery of tasks or availability with various excuses like “the internet went down there for half an hour”, and this spoils it for those who are self-disciplined enough to conduct themselves as well or better than they would in the office. It could mean that employers are picky about who is suited to 100% wfh, and that would raise equality issues etc.

In a climate of 100% employment & employee demands, employers aren’t in a great position to ensure everyone does approx their fair share of productivity.