Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

stephen_n · 01-06-2023 07:12PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667452#Comment_120667452

Should have replied to the post you were replying to, not yours. Was reading them both together.

01-06-2023 07:15PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667486#Comment_120667486

No worries!

Akrasia · 01-06-2023 10:10PM

Someone said Coombes doesn't offload or add much in open play

Well, look at his offload for the official Heineken Cup Try of the Season

https://twitter.com/Munsterrugby/status/1617208089845067778?t=WS1pPmx9PTH_DLA8t19yGw&s=19

people who don't rate Coombes just haven't been paying attention

RichieRich_89 · 01-06-2023 10:32PM

Forward

Akrasia · 01-06-2023 10:45PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120668184#Comment_120668184

Not actually forward at all. It was perfectly flat. The ball was gathered parallel to where it was passed from if you look at where the players are standing

Akrasia · 01-06-2023 10:46PM

You're confusing up with forward due to the angles in the broadcast

Daly is standing behind Coombes when he catches the ball at head height without having to reach

It was an excellent pass

cuttingtimber22 · 01-06-2023 10:51PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120668091#Comment_120668091

Some of Munster’s play this season has been out of this world. Not fancy Dan moves guide by video analysis but heads up rugby and incredible skill. That try but also the winning try on Saturday. Great to support the current No.1 team in Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Italy and South Africa.

01-06-2023 10:57PM

Coombes is work rate and power carrying and people are comparing him to guys like Conan who do alot of their carrying in wider channels. Its like a complete inability to understand context.

Akrasia · 01-06-2023 11:03PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120668287#Comment_120668287

LeBlock by Coombes after 74 mins, Coombes chasing a kick and getting there in time to create that try scoring opportunity. I haven't seen his stats for the game but watching it a few times I guarantee that they were outstanding.

Conan has had a resurgence in recent months, but he's no Coombes

RichieRich_89 · 01-06-2023 11:04PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120668254#Comment_120668254

Yeah, you keep telling yourself that.

Akrasia · 01-06-2023 11:07PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120668317#Comment_120668317

Lol. The EPCR and everyone who voted for try of the tournament agree with me.

Also the pictures I presented to you show it clearly didn't go forward

RichieRich_89 · 01-06-2023 11:14PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120668333#Comment_120668333

Nope. What they agree with you on is that it was a good try.

I would say your photos showing it ending up about a foot forward of where it was thrown by an almost static player mean it was forward. I mean, the halfway line is right there for reference. But we'll agree to disagree.

Akrasia · 01-06-2023 11:19PM

It was a few feet higher when it was caught then when it was passed.

The joys of isometric projection

RichieRich_89 · 01-06-2023 11:27PM

The camera would have to be on Munster's side of halfway to confuse upwards with forwards.

As it is he throws it almost straight at the camera, which removes confusing upwards with forwards from the equation.

Your only argument is that Coombes still has a tiny bit of momentum forwards, and that's what makes the ball travel forwards. But it's not enough, for me.

Akrasia · 01-06-2023 11:35PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120668417#Comment_120668417

Unfortunately you're still wrong.

If Daly had caught the ball at the same elevation that it was passed from, then it would have been obviously forward.

But

Rising balls look like they're going forward from the camera perspective, falling balls look like they're going backwards

Just look at the players feet.

Coombes is clearly ahead of Daly

phog · 01-06-2023 11:51PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120668417#Comment_120668417

But it's not enough, for me

Ring Joe Duffy

RichieRich_89 · 01-06-2023 11:59PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120668451#Comment_120668451

You're trying to be a bit too clever here and showing your lack of understanding. A rising ball doesn't always look as if it's travelling more forward than it is. It depends on where the camera is. If the camera is in front of play, as in this case (very marginally), a ball travelling upwards would actually look as if it was travelling more backwards than it actually is.

A pass between level players could be forward if the passer was facing his own goalline, or passing it from behind his body. Simple enough stuff.

ersatz · 02-06-2023 12:58AM

Love Coombes and he's really made his mark this year. I expect him to feature for Ireland but not for the WC as there's a heap of guys with Farrell credits in the bank ahead of him. BUT, why are people pointing to this pass as some indication of his outstanding rugby skills or brain? This is a solid piece of play I'd expect of any senior cup 8 who should be well able to pass the ball. Most kids who play rugby have mastered this skill. It's arguably more about the receiver than the passer.

Neil3030 · 02-06-2023 03:33AM

So we've progressed from

"It wAs FoRwArD"

to

"aNy sEnIor CuP eIgHt cOuLd dO iT"

Can't wait for the next chapter.

Akrasia · 02-06-2023 07:21AM

It's an improvement on the narrative that Coombes only boshes over the line from 2 metres with the help of 2 other latchers

pickarooney · 02-06-2023 07:59AM

It's sad, is what it is

TRC10 · 02-06-2023 08:50AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120668769#Comment_120668769

Is it all he does? No.

Is it the majority of what he does? Yes

ScissorPaperRock · 02-06-2023 09:27AM

He should really stop focusing on his carrying

pickarooney · 02-06-2023 09:28AM

He doesn't have to carry the whole team at least

snotboogie · 02-06-2023 09:56AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120668964#Comment_120668964

It really isn't. Unfortunately the URC don't keep passing stats but a huge amount of Munster plays run through his passes. Based on the eye test he is the best passer of any Irish back row for me. The URC do keep offload stats and Coombes averages by far the most of any Irish back row with one per game compared to his Ireland rivals; Doris, VDF and Penny 1 every 1.5 games, Conan 1 every 2 games, Deegan, Pendergast and O'Mahony 1 every 4 games and Connors 1 every 10 games.

AbusesToilets · 02-06-2023 10:13AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120668311#Comment_120668311

Conan has had a resurgence in recent months, but he's no Coombes

You're right. Conan gets picked for the national team.

02-06-2023 10:27AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669195#Comment_120669195

I'm a fan of Coombes, but to call him the best passer of any Irish backrow is a stretch for me.

I don't know where you got your stats from, but they look off to me.

If you look at the group you mentioned (I excluded Deegan, Prendergast because of their lack of European Cup minutes), then you see Coombes averages 0.8 offloads per game, across the URC and European Cup; which is exactly the same level as Caelan Doris (Doris 0.83 to Coombes 0.81 to be specific).

Every player in the group has very strong tackle stats (all north of 90% success rate), but Coombes is lowest on 90%, with O'Mahony and Penny on 91% - Conan on 94%, Doris on 95%, and then JVDF and Hodnett on 96%.

Coombes carries in big volumes, and has the most metres, but on a metres per game metric he's the leader on 31.4, but only marginally ahead of Jack Conan on 30.7. Next best is Doris on 28.3, followed by Hodnett on 27.8, then Penny on 24.3.

On a metres per carry basis - he is the lowest of the entire group, averaging 2.1m per carry, just behind O'Mahony on 2.3. Best of the group is Doris, at 4.3m per carry, ahead of Hodnett on 4.2, VDF on 3.7, Penny on 3.3 and Conan on 3.1. Those carry stats are URC only as European Cup doesn't provide that stat.

Josh van der Flier is the best passing Irish back row by a distance for me, and in the European Cup he threw by far the highest amount (41, or 6.8 per game). No other player has more than 4.

I don't necessarily think these stats are that instructive, and they don't take into account the quality of opposition faced etc (i.e. the Leinster players in this sample played more European games, Coombes played more URC games, and more games generally), and absolutely think Coombes had an outstanding season, statistically and just generally, but don't try to use skewed numbers to paint an artificial picture either.

cuttingtimber22 · 02-06-2023 10:44AM

Surely Munster doing well and Munster players improving and scoring world class tries should be celebrated. Instead there is nit picking. I cannot understand why.

As regards Coombes - we all agree he did not perform V NZA for whatever reason I don’t know (a cold, a bad day at the office who knows). He was left out of the November internationals squad but went back to Munster and had a fantastic season getting better with every game. Surely that should be celebrated.

Conan has also had a great season and had a critical role in the Grand Slam as an impact sub - he was behind Doris who is by a mile our best No.8.

The question I have and surely Leinster supporters should have - did trying to accommodate both Doris and Conan in the starting back row weaken the back row as a unit? Did this impact on the result? That is not saying that Conan did not play well, but more so was Doris optimised as a 6? Would Conan coming on for the last 30 mins have led to a more favourable outcome.

cuttingtimber22 · 02-06-2023 10:47AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669339#Comment_120669339

Based on those stats, Hodnett is desperately unlucky to be left out of the squad.

snotboogie · 02-06-2023 10:49AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669339#Comment_120669339

The URC website. I find the websites that compile data to be a lot less reliable. Fair enough its tough to compare him with Doris and VDF based on this since they plays so few URC games comparatively. Even still using the compiled data it seems Coombes still offloads at worst as often as Doris and (I'm assuming since you didn't mention) more than any other Irish back row option. On all the other stats I'm not really making a case that he's an overall better player than any of the other Irish options, I'm just pointing out the narrative that he is just (or primarily) a good carrier in the tight is complete nonsense, made by people who either don't watch Munster or don't pay attention. Its interesting that Hodnett often suffers the same analysis as a limited crash ball merchant but as your stats (and actually watching him play) show he is an extremely explosive ball carrier.

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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