Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

AbusesToilets · 31-05-2023 11:40PM

I feel like with Balacoune specifically, it's almost an indictment of Farrell's system that he hasn't stood out. The guy is Ferrari and Farrell likes his wingers to be pickup trucks. Balacoune is closer to a Penaud type of a player, lethal given time and space. If you have someone like that in your team, you ought to be building a gameplan around giving them the ball in space. I thought he was the only Ulster back who did anything to trouble the Leinster defense in the 1/4.

Former Former Former · 31-05-2023 11:59PM

This is a bit of a nonsense argument tbh. Playing for non-Leinster didn't do Mack Hansen or Calvin Nash any harm, while Leinster player Jordan Larmour has more caps than Hansen, Nash, Baloucoune and Jimmy O'Brien combined, yet still finds himself on the outside.

Baloucoune - like so many others - has had his chances to impress, and he doesn't appear to have taken them. So now he doesn't get picked.

That's all there is to it.

01-06-2023 12:05AM

Where is that dude talking about strawmen earlier. We need him in here.

TRC10 · 01-06-2023 12:10AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120664323#Comment_120664323

It wasn't advantageous for Larmour. Could it not be that the coaches just rate Nash higher? I really think people are massively overthinking this.

ersatz · 01-06-2023 12:17AM

How big an advantage is it for the SH teams to play the championship in July, take a couple of weeks off and then back into camp. Seems like ideal prep for the WC.

Dubinusa · 01-06-2023 02:32AM

I think Larmour pretty good season. He is making better decisions. But, Nash is worthy of his selection. I've watched a bit of Ulster this season and I agree that Stockdale has been quite good. It's no surprise to me that's he's involved.

The thing with Larmour is he's a kind of run 1st and see if he can open holes. He also still has the glaring deficiency with fielding. The others selected are better in this regard.

pickarooney · 01-06-2023 06:40AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120664057#Comment_120664057

But if Baloucoune was with Leinster would he inevitably start doing that more?

Edit: already answered.

New question: if Baloucoune played for Leinster would more people spell his name right?

Wegians89 · 01-06-2023 07:21AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120664484#Comment_120664484

I don’t think you can call Hansen or Lowe pick up trucks. With Balacoune it’s obvious. He doesn’t come off his wing enough and get involved in the the game. Watch how many times Ireland go to Lowe or Hansen in midfield.

Balacoune is a brilliant finisher but that doesn’t seem to be all they want in wingers.

Clegg · 01-06-2023 07:53AM

Farrell appears to want his back three to have well rounded skill sets. Lowe, Hansen and Keenan are all comfortable at moving into the midfield and acting as secondary playmakers. I've not seen Baloucoune, at least in green, be half as prominent on the ball as the other three. He's definitely the quickest and the most dangerous runner so he needs to add that element to his game.

It's also why Jimmy O'Brien has become more prominent in Ireland squads. He has played 10,13, and all across the back three to a high level. He has the skills to distribute and link when needed.

AbusesToilets · 01-06-2023 09:27AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120664734#Comment_120664734

Looking at Baloucoune (thanks pick) , he's got qualities no one else has, to me he's worth investing more time in to work on his play. It seems Ulster isn't providing the environment for that, due to the style they're playing, so why not bring him into camp? For all their merits, we have one of the slowest back lines among the Tier 1 teams. Keenan is probably the sole guy with out and out pace, be nice to have a guy that can really punish a defensive gap.

RichieRich_89 · 01-06-2023 09:44AM

I've said it before but I'd be very interested to see Baloucoune get a run at 13 for Ulster. For me he's got a lot of the essentials. He's a very canny defender, and a good tackler. And while he's been criticised for not coming in off his wing enough and acting as a playmaker I think he actually has good awareness when it comes to finding supporting players with a pass or offload; several good examples of this come to mind. Teams would have to be so wary of his pace on an outside break. A bit like Radradra played centre instead of wing when he came from league to get him more involved maybe this is what Baloucoune could do with?

01-06-2023 09:50AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120665018#Comment_120665018

Yeah, I've the same view on Baloucoune. He has such a rare skillset that you have to try to get more out of him.

The Irish gameplan wants a multitude of options, and back three players working their way infield to get hands on the ball frequently and create mismatches. TBF to Baloucoune, there are plenty of coaches out there who want their wingers to hold their width at all costs, so moving back and forth between the two styles mightn't be that intuitive to him.

Former Former Former · 01-06-2023 10:00AM

All these arguments for Baloucoune are based on his potential to do XYZ, not on his proven ability to do XYZ.

As noted by @pickarooney yesterday, that ship has sailed. We can't pick guys on potential with the RWC three months away, and we definitely can't change our style to suit a given player.

ionadnapóca · 01-06-2023 10:41AM

Baloucoune or Larmour should be in the squad. The fact that they are both excluded is where I see a problem

Lowe,Hansen,Keenan,JO'Brien will be in the WC squad and 1 other. Earls or Nash

(Stockdale backup for Lowe)

If Hansen gets a knock at WC. Potentially Earls or Nash at 14 in quarter/semi/final.

Would Earls be the oldest winger ever to play at a WC(36!!)?

I really want Earls to reach that 100 cap milestone. I can see the team value of having him in the training squad. Not in the WC squad.

I really like how Nash has played this season. Proven ability at international level is Zero.

01-06-2023 10:45AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120665340#Comment_120665340

I really like how Nash has played this season. Proven ability at international level is Zero

This wouldn't concern me. He'll be 26 by the time the RWC comes around, so if asked to play I don't think he'll be overawed by it or anything, on top of that, he'll have spent extensive time in camp by then.

Mack Hansen slotted in fairly seamlessly in 2022, and was significantly less experienced then than Nash would be now.

stephen_n · 01-06-2023 12:40PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120665340#Comment_120665340

Earls has too much international experience. Nash not enough. So we should opt for Baloucoune who has only a few games under his belt or Larmour who has more experience but whose form is patchy? Neither of whom play particularly the way Ireland currently use their wings. Larmour possibly slightly more so of the two of them.

Dubinusa · 01-06-2023 01:31PM

On Balacoune, I don't see that he's busy enough to challenge Hanson. He's a stay at home winger.

TRC10 · 01-06-2023 02:52PM

Nash is a guy I can see fitting into this Ireland team really well. He's a tough, high work rate winger who gets himself on the ball and has good skills. All skills Farrell values in his wingers.

Must love hardship · 01-06-2023 04:23PM

I'm still mystified over kilkoyne making the squad over Loughman or even potentially Milne.

And the fact they only have 3 LH props in the squad means he's going to the WC.

Similar to joey C kilkoyne hasn't been seen since the Sharks match in the champions cup.. dropped from the squad for 5 games.

Munster played South African opposition 3 times since then. 3 big scrummaging opponents and Kilkoyne was left at home.

I know Kilkoyne benched in the 6 nations when healy was injured but Loughman was also injured at that time.. I'm just not sure what Kilkoyne has done to be still ahead of him?

Ardillaun · 01-06-2023 04:32PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120659284#Comment_120659284

I’d almost put Sheehan in before Byrne. The top 12s are robust individuals these days.

Ardillaun · 01-06-2023 04:40PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120666005#Comment_120666005

That’s true and there are many other considerations that I don't understand enough about to comment on. In one area there’s zero comparison between them - pace. Any decent wing who gets past Hansen won’t be caught by him. I just feel Baloucoune offers the option of something more like a South African winger which we don’t otherwise have in our back line. It could unsettle other teams.

Dubinusa · 01-06-2023 05:21PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120666856#Comment_120666856

I'm in your camp. Kilcoyne is just not good enough. Porter would have to go for 65 minutes. Loughman is far better.

El Vino · 01-06-2023 05:21PM

As well as coming inside, quality of their kicking game is hugely important for Irish wingers, I think its a particular weakness of both Baloucoune and Larmour. In fact Hansen, Lowe and JOB well ahead of all the others as far a kicking goes

RichieRich_89 · 01-06-2023 05:50PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667078#Comment_120667078

I too would have Loughman and Milne (and probably several others) ahead of Kilcoyne, but Farrell's done such an outstanding job that he almost deserves to be immune from criticism, in my opinion.

01-06-2023 06:27PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667085#Comment_120667085

That’s actually a reason i thought Balacoune might be in this squad at least.

France, SA and NZ know they either will be playing us or need to beat us to make a world cup final.

Everyone who has watched Ireland play will know that a key part of the ireland game plan is kicking long. I think all three of those teams will be coming up with game plans to stop that, and all three could roll out the most obvious solution. Pick a highly athletic game breaking back three and run everything back. Only think about kicking off front foot ball 4/5/6 phases after the return.

We could preempt that by box kicking more to make it contestable and take those players out of the game somewhat. If we did that, Balacoune is a great kick chaser and excels in a transition game where the ball is being contested and the field is somewhat more broken.

Its going to be interesting. All along our goal has been to get really good at plan A and i think all three of those teams will have thought very hard on how to counter that plan.

I honestly wouldn’t kick much to ireland that isn’t contestable. And I’d be happy to see scrums. Especially for France and South Africa. On exits from deep in the 22 i even think teams will try to keep it in play and make Ireland’s back three run it back.

Neil3030 · 01-06-2023 06:36PM

We could preempt that by box kicking more to make it contestable and take those players out of the game somewhat. If we did that, Balacoune is a great kick chaser and excels in a transition game where the ball is being contested and the field is somewhat more broken.

Nash in the URC final, basically.

01-06-2023 06:39PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667370#Comment_120667370

That’s true, Nash is a great kick chaser too.

The game we played against South Africa last year, we didn’t kick long as much either. It worked in that one. Although i think a different ref and/or a different SA 10 and we lose that game.

Ardillaun · 01-06-2023 06:51PM

I’m not imagining some anti-Ulster conspiracy here or questioning the picks for wings. The guys have made good choices there so far.

stephen_n · 01-06-2023 07:01PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667338#Comment_120667338

Stockdale has a huge boot

01-06-2023 07:02PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667449#Comment_120667449

Yea, almost every winger who was picked can kick. I’m not sure how that applies to what i wrote tho.

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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