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Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

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Comments

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,319 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Male beats women in sports. In other news water is wet. A few years back when another male cyclist beat women in the women's category that was dismissed by the usual defenders of nonsense tying themselves in knots as nothing really/it was a minor event and title/needless moral panic. Now in a mainstream cycling event it's apparently still OK. Never mind 6' 4" Males in women's swimming and males in women's athletics.

    Everyone involved with these events, but especially the women competing should get together and simply refuse to compete against males. There needs to be the community sending a message. When lineups at the starting line in women's sports are reduced to a couple of males, that will change things. Boycotts work.

    Oh and before the usual report button self righteous types have a hissy fit clicking until their fingers bleed. I haven't "misgendered" anyone. I specifically stated "male", their biological sex. And since gender is separate according to their own ideology good luck with that. When one has to be careful with stating what is obvious to the vast majority of people in a society in case one is accused of some modern day blasphemy it doesn't bode well for that same society. And that's before the truly scary law with no mandate from the voting public being fired through the Dail as we speak. It will be illegal to state the bloody obvious. Something's got to give.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Inclusion and fairness are fluffy, nice sounding words but what we need is exclusion to create fairness.

    And we shouldn't feel guilty or be gaslighted because of it, either.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,937 ✭✭✭Enduro


    It looks like the UCI have woken up (No pun intended) to the fairness issues with their current policy on eligibilty for transgender athletes to enter the female category and are going to look at the rules agaiin in light of the Killips result. I'd guess they'll adopt a very similar policy to World Aquatics and World Athletics (now that those organisations have done the heavy lifting, and prioritised fairness over notional inclusivity)




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,215 ✭✭✭plodder


    And this:

    British Rowing is considering banning transgender athletes from the women's category unless they were born female in an unprecedented members' vote, defying the sport’s global governing body.

    In an attempt to resolve a bitter transgender row that has created tensions at board level, British Rowing is asking its 31,500 members to vote by 5pm next Friday on their preferred trans policy, with one option to “adopt a new approach to the women’s/female category in particular, that allows only athletes who have been declared female at birth to compete in the ‘female’ category”.


    “Fanaticism is always a sign of repressed doubt” - Carl Jung



  • Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The pendulum is fast swinging back to common sense.



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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,232 ✭✭✭TooTired123


    That it ever was allowed to swing so far into cloud cuckoo land will have to be investigated eventually.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 14,304 Mod ✭✭✭✭pc7


    It really has been like a social contagion, but I do feel the tide and common sense is returning. I still wouldn't openly speak my views in work or public on what I think about the whole thing. Males who have gone through puberty have an advantage in my opinion in many sports and shouldn't be allowed compete against women. Easy say women should stand up and not compete, but the baying mob can be quite intimidating and I'd fear I'd lose my job if I was to say, just as an example ' Trans women are not women'.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,937 ✭✭✭Enduro


    Oh that's really intereting. Hopefully the count of the vote will be publicly released. It would be an fascinating insight.



  • Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Completely agree with this.

    I know many people within the gay "community" who daren't say what they believe publicly on these matters, due to the legitimate and predictable backlash, but when pressed behind the scenes about what they believe, they are utterly appalled at what has happened in recent years.

    People are right to be fearful of the backlash. Initially, everyone was a bit confused by the whole thing. Now that most people have caught up to what it actually means, it's starting to look like the authorities too are starting to grow a spine.

    Their arguments are exhaustingly bad - and they know it, so the only way to enforce those arguments is through fear.

    But you can only force a worldview on the population for so long before they start to stand up for themselves.



  • Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 78,485 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Sligeach threadbanned



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,580 ✭✭✭✭briany


    @Wibbs

    And since gender is separate according to their own ideology good luck with that.

    Well, this is where I get confused, because I had thought that gender was defined as a set of behaviours, whereas sex was your biology. I think a lot of this row is borne out of the two getting conflated.

    There has been a long history of biological males taking on typically female gender roles and vice-versa, or landing somewhere in between. What there hasn't been a long history of is males or females taking on gender behaviours of the other sex and, through this, wanting or perhaps demanding to be considered that other sex, even if their anatomy clearly says otherwise.

    What should be remembered, I think, is that the views of a small number of extremists online are driving this whole debate and there may be a lot of transgender people out there who are not asking to be literally considered a particular sex as a result of gender norms they ascribe to. They just want to live their lives free from ridicule and scorn.

    As I said before, I think this debate, when it comes to gender identity and sex being conflated is to what extent do other people have to accept a person's subjective sense of themselves? If a trans woman/man must be considered a literal woman/man, then what else could a person consider themselves to be, and would any of these identities be any less valid? And if this idea of subjective identity takes more of a hold, there will be equal pushback, because I think human beings like patterns and things they can rely on being objectively true, but if the identity of everyone around you is constantly in question, it's going to be a shifting sand which will eventually produce a lurch back into a very conservative society, losing everyone a lot of personal freedom.



  • Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    That confusion is deliberately created.

    Ultimately, when a transgender person (male or female) says they identify as the opposite gender, what they're really saying is that they identify as the opposite sex. That's why the demands are made to accept them as the opposite sex.

    Now with other genders, we don't have the same confusion. For example: if someone identifies as agender (i.e. someone who says they are without gender), we can still recognize that they still possess a biological sex irrespective of their socially constructed self-identification.

    But with male and female, activists want to create the confusion that they're talking about the gender (self-expression), when what they're really talking about is biological sex.

    That's the reason they argue that biological sex should be changed on passports (it doesn't say Gender: __________ on passports).

    It's a very clever sleight of hand, and most people are too busy to consider it, and so are left understandably confused.

    But more and more people are waking up from this confusion and calling it out for what it is.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,580 ✭✭✭✭briany


    Something interesting I found was how radically the definition of gender has shifted in 20 years. Here is the 2004 Cambridge English Dictionary entry,

    gender 2004.PNG

    Here is the 2023 Cambridge entry ,

    a group of people in a society who share particular qualities or ways of behaving which that society associates with being male, female, or another identity:

    The definitions of words do, of course, change over time, and I don't get the impression that this particular change in language has been the main driver of controversy, but the principal entry for most, if not all, definitions of man and woman remain the same, i.e. an adult human male/female.

    When it comes to the subset of transgender people who want to be considered the sex they identify with, without qualifier, it's like they're starting off with the 2023 definition and then ending on the 2004 one, e.g. [2023]"I identify as... (???)... [2004] therefore I am." It's parlaying a subjectively-driven definition into an objectively-driven one. Which is it?

    Until the debate cools off, extremists are marginalised, and agreed definitions of some contentious terms emerge, I don't really think the topic can be meaningfully had.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,091 ✭✭✭✭Quantum Erasure



    Tipperary Senior Ladies Gaelic Football manager Peter Creedon speaks up.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,187 ✭✭✭El Gato De Negocios


    The dominoes are beginning to speed up. The wider issue of the trans agenda is firmly in the spotlight and the massive wallop to sales and subsequent rowback by Anheuser Busch following the use of mulvaney for their campaign adds credence to the saying go woke go broke.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Define woke?

    what did Bud Light cans with Mulvaney have to do with social injustice?



  • Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I always find it funny how those who supported and invented the term Woke to begin with, are now pretending that they haven't a clue what it's referring to.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 17,626 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    Who invented the term "Woke" ?

    Anyone using it today is usually an awful person with deeply rooted psychological issues about being inferior in some way ranging from racism to misogyny, but I'd be interested in who invented it.

    As if "being nice to others" needed defining.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    I never invented the term?

    Is this one of your misplaced generalizations?

    Woke is being used in a way here that doesn’t match the actual definition. So I’m asking the user to define it. Are you pretending to define it for them? Filibustering doesn’t work, they’ll still need to define what they meant by it - as you’ve clearly failed to manage to define how bud light etc was doing anything to do with social injustices when it gave a YouTuber a specially labeled case of novelty beer?

    ”the massive wallop to sales and subsequent rowback by Anheuser Busch following the use of mulvaney for their campaign adds credence to the saying go woke go broke.”



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,160 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    When I said that humans made up the biological differences between the sexes, I don’t mean that humans had an input into the process, I mean that biology is the study of life, and organisms and so on. I’m saying that the classification system was invented by humans based on their observations. That’s what I mean by the classification system, and one is free to take their pick of the various classification systems of how humans are classified according to whatever criteria are used within that system.

    The point that sports could be classified in different ways hasn’t been lost at all, nor is anyone depriving anyone of the right to organise their activities and events or whatever in accordance with their own preferences, whether that be based upon sex, gender, age, whatever. Freedom of association - still a thing.

    I didn’t put scientists in inverted commas, precisely because while I don’t share their views, they are still scientists, and not click-baity magazine editors. The point being that even though they are scientists, I wouldn’t call what they are doing science, because their findings were based on their own observations as opposed to presenting what could possibly be considered scientific evidence to support their conclusions. In a similar fashion - I wouldn’t take John Money seriously just because he was an eminent scientist and prolific within his own field of research. He tried to make evidence fit his theories, which included the idea that because there was a biological basis for gender, it could be manipulated. His conclusions simply weren’t supported by scientific evidence, but because of his reputation, he had considerable influence and his theories gained widespread acceptance. We now know the implications of his research, in much the same way as we know the implications of arguing that sexual orientation can be manipulated, and under threat of persecution, people will choose to conform, as they are aware of the consequences of non-conformance with a predominant and prevailing social construct.

    And that brings me to the point about the phenomenon of young boys bleeding out their their nether orifices and the lack of awareness that this was obviously not normal among a population who didn’t appear to know any better, or as you suggest- perhaps didn’t care, as long as these young boys were still able to work in an environment where they were being infected by parasites causing the phenomenon. I’m not suggesting that anyone need go as far as some scientists who chose to investigate the phenomenon by ingesting the parasites themselves, what I’m suggesting is that people who knew of the phenomenon, but chose to ignore it and in some cases persecute young boys who did not bleed, in order to maintain their own ideological beliefs - their behaviour is unethical. It’s for reasons like this that scientific evidence has to be able to reach a certain level of credibility, and one can’t do that based upon small-scale studies, let alone studies which don’t support their hypothesis at all. It’s why in biology, twin studies are like the holy grail in terms of understanding a phenomenon -

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-17749-0


    They are not without their limitations of course, the most common one being that they are based on tiny numbers that couldn’t possibly be used in order to be presented as credible scientific evidence of anything. It’s for this reason I have the issues I do with the likes of Ross Tucker and the BMJ purporting that small-scale studies are of any significance, when their methodology is so clearly flawed, in order to support their conclusions that people who are transgender should be excluded from participating in sports competitions in accordance with their preferred gender. They’re purposely choosing to ignore the fact that there are a number of contributing factors which affect anyone’s athletic ability and performance in any given sport.

    Those factors are not simply limited to biology, they also include sociological and psychological factors, which confer both advantages and disadvantages depending upon context. It’s why for example therapeutic medical exemptions exist, it’s why women’s categories in sports exist, and it’s why if a policy is designed specifically to exclude people on the basis of gender, which has the intended effect of excluding people who are transgender from participating in competitions in accordance with their preferred gender, then the least one would expect, and what would seem entirely reasonable, is to study people who are transgender in sports, as opposed to producing click-baity articles in support of an already formed conclusion.

    That’s the sort of behaviour I’d expect of ideologues who are only interested in promoting their own views and beliefs, with no regard for the welfare of others who do not share their views or beliefs. It’s the kind of ideology which, if it were ever taken seriously, could lead to this sort of nonsense -

    https://amp.smh.com.au/world/sweden-debates-hitting-men-with-domestic-violence-tax-20041006-gdjv55.html



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  • Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I read your entire post and, with the greatest of respects, I don't even know if I agree or disagree with you.

    Can you perhaps frame your point in a sentence or two so that I can understand what point you're trying to make. Then perhaps I can go back to your post and see if I can make more sense of it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,160 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    It’s really quite simple - I want people to have the same freedom and opportunities which I had as a result of competing in sports, regardless of anyones race or sex or disabilities or gender or religious or political beliefs or whatever else, and don’t bring that shyte into sports.

    If people want to whine about the unfairness of perceived biological advantages or disadvantages that men have that women don’t, I say so what if men can run faster than women? Big whoop! If they really wanted to get into a pissing contest about biological advantages or disadvantages, the sex which has the greatest overall biological disadvantages from womb to tomb may well come as a bit of a surprise to some -

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7928849/



  • Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Are you saying men and women should compete alongside each other then?

    I'm still unsure what you're pointing to.

    Nor am I sure what relevance women living longer than men has to do with it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,160 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack




  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 30,867 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    "So what if men can run faster than women" pretty much encapsulates why your view on the entire subject makes zero sense.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,160 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    Understandably so if you’re coming from the point of view where it somehow makes sense that men would want to compete against women in ANY sport, at any level. I’m asking myself “why is it assumed that men would want to compete against women?”, because I can’t think of any reason why men would want to compete against women in any sport, let alone the idea that it would mean women and girls would no longer wish to compete in any sport because there are men involved. I think the exclusion of anyone from any sport though, does nothing for the development of the sport.



  • Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    If men competed with women in tennis, that would be the end of women in tennis.

    Ditto for boxing and about 40 other sports.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,160 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    It wouldn’t though. I won’t waste your time asking for any rational basis for your claim because I know you don’t have one, it’s just more of the usual throwing something out there that has no grounding in reality. It would take an extraordinary amount of effort on the part of any sports organisation to be so incapable of governing and promoting their sport that what you’re suggesting just wouldn’t happen. You have to have some idea of the global popularity of tennis, surely?

    What you’re doing is like arguing that because sports like weightlifting, boxing and the modern pentathlon, just because they are under review by the IOC signals the end of those sports. It doesn’t; however it does mean that the competitions need undergo changes in order to keep their Olympic status -

    https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2021/dec/09/olympics-weightlifting-boxing-risk-being-dropped-2028-games


    In the IOCs efforts to broaden the appeal of the Olympics, they’re also going out on a limb in terms of other sports which were previously not considered eligible for inclusion in the Olympics -

    https://19thnews.org/2023/04/college-cheerleading-future-the-olympics/?amp


    It’s all about appealing to the youth to get them involved in sports in order to increase the profile of sports in terms of their inclusiveness and all that jazz.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,215 ✭✭✭plodder


    Trans woman cyclist wins race by 17 minutes from second place and 30 minutes from third place. Second and third don't show up for podium presentation..

    The event has a non-binary category, but Mumford chose to enter as a woman instead.


    Mumford, 46, finished first in the women’s age 40-49 category. He placed ahead of 43 females in the age group and beat the second place finisher by a whopping 17 minutes and 19 seconds. He beat the third place winner by more than 30 minutes.


    “Fanaticism is always a sign of repressed doubt” - Carl Jung



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42,819 ✭✭✭✭Boggles




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