Is it possible for rental agents to embezzle from the property owners? (not tenants)

15-05-2023 06:02AM #1

This makes me feel my age but I was speaking with a dude I went to college with over the weekend, married now with a bunch of kids, and he was telling me he actually has a second property.

He was beefing however, that the rental agency were constantly making deductions for supposed repairs and replacements being requested by tenants.

I've lived in rented apartments myself for the last number of years and rarely required repairs or replacements, and when they were required, it typically took time for clearance and the agent would often inspect my request through video calls etc.

So I woke up this morning and couldn't help but consider the situation (not least of all cause I hate duplicity and scam tactics, and unfortunately my experience with and opinion of rental agents isn't wonderful), how would a property owner know if their rental agent was skimming from the monthly rent by fabricating repair claims and simply pocketing the money?

Would my dude have to basically request a run down of historical financial deductions from his rental fee, and then validate them?

And could doing such a thing sour his relationship with the rental agent?

15-05-2023 06:21AM

Your college friend will know his own property or should. He should know if a request sounds reasonable. Plus, say an oven needs replacing, he should get a copy of the purchase receipt and actually be able to see a new oven has been installed over time.

Managing such is what the agents are there for. It’s not likely the agents would typically bother with nickel and diming it this way, and should only make material purchases after running by your acquaintance first. My question would be are particular tenants acting the maggot? Looking for something to be replaced, but not necessary… say a perfectly working oven, but a little old.

Or, may have been your friend’s way of bragging… ‘I’ve got this property rented, but…’

Finally, try not to take on the world’s problems. 😉

15-05-2023 08:40AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120598053#Comment_120598053

You're not a rental agent by chance, are you?

Yes he's a smart dude and most recently did question a deduction and was actually refunded said deduction.

I took an interest in what he mentioned, due to the number of questionable experiences I personally have had with rental agents.

They don't seem to get that bad a rap, which I find surprising.

So the question to the community was straight forward - addressing this, he would have to request a list of modifications made, cost incurred, and validate them himself, to be certain embezzlement isn't happening?

.......

should only make material purchases after running by your acquaintance first.

I would agree, however he mentioned they typically don't.

If the tenants are "acting the maggot", liability for allowing this to happen would regardless, be the responsibility of the rental agent for failing to adequately inspect the complaint.

And, would requesting such a thorough inspection of repairs etc from an agent, potentially sour his relation with them or is it something they would consider routine? (to the subforum as a whole, not just C.W.)

Finally, try not to take on the world’s problems. 😉

I enjoy considering cognitively challenging and controversial issues. Do you wish to deprive me of my hobby?

15-05-2023 08:55AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120598197#Comment_120598197

No, just a secret agent ! D'oh! you got me. 😊

While my instinct is that any sizeable agency wouldn't do this... the risk of getting caught would be huge and reputational damage catastrophic... if they are making material changes without asking and then charging your friend then...

a.) that's wrong (unless he agreed to this in writing)

b.) he's not that smart a dude to let it slide, imho.

The cost of changing light bulbs, he's hardly going to go to the bother of checking (may as well not have an agent), but, say, a new fridge after only a year or so and he should be informed and requested if it's okay to purchase and what the budget would be. Otherwise what's stopping the agent putting in a Miele appliance ? I don't think he needs to do this to check if embezzlement is occurring rather that the expense is required and managed.

Re checking the validity/reasonableness of the tennant requests depends on the SLA he's agreed with the agent. But, as it's no skin off the agent's nose... it would surely be in your friend's interest to set a limit above which he needs to be consulted.

My take on your last point - again depends on the level of scrutiny. Some tenants expect light bulbs to be replaced by the landlord and if this is allowed and the landlord calls to get comfort on such a decision then the tenants may not be happy. But, if it's a new appliance, repairs (bathroom tiles etc.) no reasonable tenant can complain if the landlord or agent inspects. Again, imo.

15-05-2023 09:05AM

Finally, try not to take on the world’s problems. 😉

"I enjoy considering cognitively challenging and controversial issues. Do you wish to deprive me of my hobby?"

I missed this bit at first (added?) - absolutely not, if that's the goal - and boards.ie is perfect for that. But, I do know people that do take on other people's problems and it can cause them stress. We probably all do it to a certain extent.

15-05-2023 10:32AM

If the repairs or replacements are above what are considered normal the agent needs to start providing photographic evidence of the damage.

Receipts should always be provided, your friend should be comparing the costs the agent are charging him.

Agents are climbing over each other to get properties to manage, find a new agent if he is not happy with the current one.

DownByTheGarden · 15-05-2023 01:12PM

When I was a landlord I had an agent running it for a few years while I was abroad.

Decide for yourself what you think was going on here. I have my own suspicion.

They replaced a hob with a hob costing €600 plus €200 for installing it. Add the Vat on to that.

They replaced a bathroom tap with a tap that cost €150 plus €150 for fitting it. plus VAT.

They replaced a mattress with a mattress that cost €800. They did this twice.

They replaced an undercounter fridge with another undercounter fridge that cos €400. Charged for removing and installing too.

And the replaced an electric panel radiator with one costing €350. plus fitting.

And a new immersion tank cost me €2000.

And 4 or 5 callouts for broken shower hoses/heads and the like.

When I queried each of these things I got fobbed off with excuses about supply and finding someone to do the jobs.

It turned out that the same person did all the jobs and supplied all the replacements.

The apartment was 3 years old when they took it over. All the stuff was bought new and I lived in it myself until they took it over. And then all that had to be replaced in the space of 2 years.

As soon as i got home I fired the agent.

15-05-2023 01:33PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120599248#Comment_120599248

Dayum - that's what I'm talking about.

You couldn't challenge them on the bogus replacements?

There's no recoup for that?

Just replacing them as agents hardly seems like vindication.

As I mentioned my own personal experience with letting agents is an abomination, I would personally feel reassured if they could be reported to the RTB or such for this duplicity?

15-05-2023 01:37PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120598563#Comment_120598563

Agents are climbing over each other to get properties to manage, find a new agent if he is not happy with the current one.

I might advise my dude in this capacity.

Given he has a bunch of kids now and works as a projection manager for a multinational company, would it be time consuming or a hassle for him to change agents?

DownByTheGarden · 15-05-2023 02:06PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120599337#Comment_120599337

I did challenge them. I was on the other side of the world though. I even tried to get a new agent to take over at one point but it was too hard to sort it out. Sorted it out quick smart when i got home though.

15-05-2023 04:56PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120599353#Comment_120599353

Not if the property is near him.

pooley124 · 16-05-2023 10:22AM

I had an agent looking after my property years ago, they employed a handyman to do all the repairs that came up.

I got a bill for €90 to repair the kitchen tap. Went up there myself a week later and it was still broken. The fascia corner box had a hole and the guy just tacked on a piece of wood over it. A blind man could have done better. Forget what the charge was for that but it was a few hundred euro.

After that I got rid of the agent and managed it myself. I'm not recommending looking after it yourself btw , as that brings its own problems. If the tenants know you live far away they will take advantage of that.

16-05-2023 12:27PM

There should be a distinction between what the OP is asking about in their OP, embezzlement and lack of care re costs incurred. The latter is something any Land Lord should be concerned with. But, an agent creating fake expenses is unlikely. And the same would be case if we were getting work done on our own homes where service providers will try it on. The difference here is that it's at one remove (an agent). You need to manage the agent to manage the service provider or be prepared to be ripped off. But, again, this isn't the same as embezzlement.

16-05-2023 12:42PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120603215#Comment_120603215

You need to manage the agent to manage the service provider or be prepared to be ripped off.

Care you expound on what this means?

Cause you make it sound like, "all property owners need to regularly kick the agents ass or they deserve to get hustled and short-changed".

16-05-2023 10:26PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120603262#Comment_120603262

deserve?

no.

but, I’m out. Good luck to your friend.

Claw Hammer · 18-05-2023 11:41AM

Agents have a number of ways of swindling the owner.

The agent needs an applicance for their own property. they take a perfectly functioning one from the landlords property, telling him it failed and has to be replaced and they make the landlord pay for a new one and keep the landlords one for themselves.

They call out a plumber or electrician at the landlords expense on the understanding that the plumber or electrician will do some work for free for the agent.

They get a plumber or electrician to their own house and get the receipt made out to the landlord for work on the landlords house.

When a tenant gives notice, they tell the landlord vacated earlier than they actually did vacate and keep the rent for that period.

They keep some or all of a tenants deposit and then tell the landlord they gave back the whole or some of the deposit., keeping the difference for themselves.

18-05-2023 01:29PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120611645#Comment_120611645

"They keep some or all of a tenants deposit and then tell the landlord they gave back the whole or some of the deposit., keeping the difference for themselves."

Is this guess work, or happened and there's the subsequent court case that can be linked to?

19-05-2023 09:35AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120611645#Comment_120611645

What would a landlords recourse be in this situation?

Can this be examined or mediated through the RTB?

Is it possible for rental agents to embezzle from the property owners? (not tenants)

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