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Are the English royal family the greatest scam ever played?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 44,375 ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    I think the real thing about Elizabeth is that they were able to groom her for the role given that she took the throne at so young an age at a time of great social upheaval in the UK's history. She had no prior background of speaking out so the left didn't get agitated by her while the right would be pro-monarchy anyway.

    Charles has come out with a fair bit of guff over the years but even if he hadn't, I think it would be impossible to find a worthy successor to his mother as @[Deleted User] points out.

    Support for the institution is thankfully plummeting amongst the young who have seen their prospects decimated by decades of neoliberal government and Tory venality. Older people here don't give a f*ck which suits them for now but once they die off, I expect things to change considerably. It particularly rankles having to spend a hundred million pounds of Charlie's ceremony while people queue for foodbanks and strike.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,775 ✭✭✭monseiur


    Something most people here are unaware of is that DeValera wanted Ireland to rejoin the commonwealth....bizarre but true. Also interesting to note that Sinn Féin will be represented at king charles coronation ....it was prince/king charles's own parachute regiment that murdered, in cold blood, 14 unarmed citizens in Derry on 30th January 1972 and injured many more, not one on these state sponsored terrorists or their commanders ever served a day in prison....it speaks volumes for so called british justice (or lack thereof)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 209 ✭✭Lionel Fusco




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,775 ✭✭✭monseiur


    Brexit had at least on positive result - it saved the EU billions of Euro. The queen and son charles were in receipt of up to 2.5 million Euro annually in farm subsidies and other grants for their farms in Sandringham and elsewhere.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 44,375 ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    I'd rather they stayed and dumped the Windsors in a council house or prison depending on which is more appropriate.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,711 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    I don't take issue with what you said. But I think Charles is remembered as a gobshyte for some issues where he was dead right.

    He was an environmentalist long before it was popular. He was in favour of environmental protection, fewer pesticides, more urban green spaces in building planning. People called him a tree hugger and a gobshyte. Turns out he was just ahead of his time on those issues, bit he's still remembered as a bit of a gobshyte.

    You're probably thinking of plenty of other scandals or whatever other guff he came out with over the years. But he wasn't always wrong about things.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 44,375 ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    I know about his stance on environmental issues but it heavily overlaps with the little Englander mindset of never building anything despite there being a housing crisis. He's also lobbied for alternative medicines in the NHS. It's not just about opinions but lobbying and that's before we get to Prince Andrew and the crown's billions in assets.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,749 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    You are looking at it from an Irish perspective with it's built in historical biases, inferiority complex and so on.

    But from a British perspective the vast majority want the Royal family it is not even 50/50.


    --

    The next question is WHY do the British want the Royal family?

    Well the answer is a complex one. But the main reason is they see the Royal family as THEIR representatives of 'Britishness' and tradition - continuity. Something tangible, yet intangible. There are constant Royal watchers, Royal correspondents - reading between the lines - looking for 'statements'.

    And many see the Royal family as representatives of their own 'Britishness' on the world stage. A figurehead. Which many treat with extreme reverence. You also do not seem to realise that Britain/England is a very class based society, (much more so than Ireland) they are used to it. Britain is a conservative society much more than Ireland - tradition is important to British people.

    Plus there is also the argument of all the money that royal family bring in is more than the money that costs for their upkeep - tourism and from their own private estates which go to the government. With all the glitz and glamour associated with it.

    The Royal family is a British brand - a worldwide recognise one.


    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,711 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Yeah fair enough. He might be more of a stopped clock than a visionary.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 44,375 ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    He was on the ball for the green stuff in fairness. It's the peddling of pseudoscience I take issue with along with the lobbying. Given the thread title, it's ironic that he was peddling his own brand of crank medicines.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,775 ✭✭✭monseiur


    Back in 1999 Australia held a referendum, they had a choice, keep the queen as head of state of become a republic. It's interesting to note that 55% decided to keep the queen of England as their head of state and 45% voted for a republic, subservience at it's worst .....the mind boggles The union jack is embedded in the top left corner of their nation's flag.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Is Spain better than Italy because they have a monarchy? Belgium better than France or Sweden better than Finland?

    That is one flimsy thesis you got there



  • Posts: 1,338 ✭✭✭ Melina Fast Appliance


    Despite the impression given, you can be sure she was PR managed by the best in the business back in the day and right through her life. They created a fairytale, and it worked.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Posts: 1,338 ✭✭✭ Melina Fast Appliance


    That's one that's trotted out quite a bit and tends to use selective examples of republics and monarchies and assumes that the fact they're constitutional monarchies is the primary driver of their stability, without providing any evidence at all.

    The reality is that the countries they're looking at are in post-WWII Europe and whether they're republics or constitutional monarchies, tend to all share in a common vision of rights based democracy. The monarchy bit in the countries that retained it is usually not at all relevant to the structures of government or their politics.

    You don't have to go back very far to find constitutional and other forms of monarchies in Europe involved in massive conflicts, including being most of the protagonists in WWI. If you want pick some nice examples, Imperial Japan was a constitutional monarchy... I suppose you could argue it was stable, but it was one of the most hostile forces in modern history and did huge damage to many of its neighbours.

    if you take France, Ireland, Finland, Iceland, Switzerland and even post-WWII Germany, etc you can't really call any of those in any way unstable - many of them (including Ireland) are in the top ten most democratic countries in the world, and if you go to the older example of a large modern Republic, the United States, it's got whacky politics form time to time and plenty of flaws, but it's been ticking away since the late 1770s ...

    I'm also unconvinced by the tourism argument. I mean, do people really go to the UK to see the royals or to see the palaces and sites and check out all the history and culture and so on that the UK has to offer? It's not like the 85+ million who visit France every year are put off by the fact there's no royal family either...

    And I mean if you visit Spain does anyone (including the Spanish) even realise there's a king?!

    I've also seen the arguments made from the perspective of NZ republicans about the fact that the Queen (or the new King) is a very remote character. They are technically the head of state for NZ, yet the reality of it is they're an ambassador and symbol of the United Kingdom. They occasionally visit, and it's pretty much like any visiting foreign dignitary, yet they're supposed to be the country's head of state? So they miss out on the opportunity to have a equivalent of a president who can act as their chief ambassador... I think it's probably even a looser connection when you get into some of the smaller states that people don't even realise the UK monarch is head of state in. Aussie and Canada are a bit more royalist I think, but I wonder will that fizzle a lot in the years ahead.

    I mean, if you think of the Queen or Charles, you don't immediately go "oh yeah they represent Canada.." even though they're emblazoned on their coins and so on most people just see it as a technicality.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 44,375 ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    It worked far too well. Either too little energy was spent keeping her brood in line or she set too high a standard for Charles to meet.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,605 ✭✭✭Large bottle small glass


    https://www.theredhandfiles.com/why-are-you-going-to-kings-coronation/


    Nick Cave's reasons for attending coronation; wonderful as always although previous file was better



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,098 ✭✭✭growleaves


    Winston Churchill wrote in his memoir about the second world war that eliminating the monarchies in Germany and Austria after the first war had destabilised these countries which helped to create the second war.

    I don't necessarily agree with him but its an argument.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,386 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    Dunno about an important historical event. Nevermind the most important. Most Brits are probably more excited about the Bank Holiday.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,073 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    The English royal family actually make money for the UK and attract worldwide tourism. When the push comes to the shove, they do other work. During the war the Queen trained and worked as a mechanic.

    Our little millionaire socialist leprechaun fella and his highly paid hangers on do not. As taxpayers, he is the biggest scam we should concern ourselves with. I suggest he earn his keep and dress up and parade down in Temple Bar and pose for selfies with tourists. I joke not.



  • Posts: 1,338 ✭✭✭ Melina Fast Appliance


    Churchills opining tended to be that of someone who saw the world through very deeply imperial pink glasses and who saw empire and monarchy as altruistic and benevolent somehow. His views on class and race were genuinely appalling, even if they may have been very much of their time and his background.

    He said a few things during WWII that will be remembered, and turned into an impressive speechmaker during that period, but his views on a lot of things were just a snapshot of the views of the upper echelons of the British imperial establishment of that era and they liked their status quo, which probably meant keeping the oligarch of cousins i.e. the European royals in position.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,127 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    In all honesty while the British monarchy does take the pomp and ceremony to extreme , there are things to be said for having a monarch instead of a president (in a non executive system )

    1st off , I'm not a monarchist .. its an archaic system

    But the dutch - swedes and norweigans seem to do quite well with it -

    It was a way of bringing stability to post franco'ist spain , ( even if the old king has blotted his copy book a bit in recent years)..

    The royalty are a figurehead , and supposed to be above politics and a guardian of the constitution - same job as Michael D has ,

    The aussies even stuck with the system in a referendum.. largely cos they werent sure what sort of presidency they could get landed with instead ..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 44,375 ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Ill believe this when I see a source. The snide comments about Ireland's elected head of state are nothing more than an attempt to shut down criticism.

    Post edited by ancapailldorcha on

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Posts: 1,338 ✭✭✭ Melina Fast Appliance


    Well, Ireland, Finland, Iceland, Switzerland, modern post-war Germany and quite a few others seem to manage to elect presidents that are very much figureheads above politics some of whom have been genuinely impressive in their roles.

    At least there's a discussion, a democratic process and a choice about who that person is.

    Executive presidencies like France or the US are a whole different type of politics and aren't really comparable.

    I think when you look at the systems used in a lot of European republics arrived in the 20th century. They're basically a democratic evolution of the structures of a constitutional monarchy. The US and France are democratic evolutions of the near absolute monarchies of the 1700s. Effectively they're electing a king, with some modifications and checks and balances.

    Stability usually involves deliberative processes and seeking to find consensus and so on. That's something many European countries, including Ireland, do extremely well. We can work in the grey areas and the winners don't take all on some narrow technical majority, which is really part of PR democracy and a style of politics.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    I don't get the tourist angle either. I mean, most of the people in support of a monarchy would be conservative in outlook, but conservatives tend not to like foreigners either, so....

    And yeah, I know they're foreigners with money, but the whole Brexit thing made it harder for them to come and spend it royal-watching.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 85 ✭✭Kiwi John


    That referendum was turned by the then PM into a state power v commonweath power vote.

    the result had more to do with politics than the head of state



  • Posts: 1,338 ✭✭✭ Melina Fast Appliance


    It doesn't really add up. If you look at France, people walk through lavish former royal palaces like the Louvre, Versailles, Fountainebleau etc etc etc..

    They're visited as pieces of archaeology almost - a look back at a bygone era. The fact there's no kings and queens in them isn't really relevant. If anything, it has made them far more accessible than their British counterparts.

    On a much much smaller scale here in Ireland, we can wander Dublin Castle or Áras an Uachtaráin without any need for a viceroy being still in existence. The history's and the architecture is still there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 277 ✭✭Guildenstern


    History and its peoples evolve.

    The Romans left Britain in the early 400s. I think it was around 519, around 100 years later, that Cerdic declared himself as the first King of Wessex - Alfred The Great, Anglo - Saxon England, the Vikings, William the Conqueror and the Normans, the Plantagenets, the Tudors, Henry VIII, Elizabeth, Charles 1, the Cromwell period, The Houses of Stuart and Orange, The Georgians, Queen Victoria, and then we get to the 20th Century. That's quite some story and the making of a country, with all its inherent positives and negatives. 1,500 years or so. A bloody journey from the all powerful king to the constitutional and ceremonial monarchy today.

    Added to that and the celebrity culture that has evolved in our modern world. The Royals have provided good column inches for that.

    The evolvement continues. A stripped back monarchy where they'll also perhaps end up paying more taxes, handing over some palaces and land to the state, but that will never be enough for some.

    It seems to be there's more of an indifference these days to the Royals as outright positivity or negativity.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 127 ✭✭Ignacius


    They cost far more than they bring in. The whole institution is a massive waste of money. The peerages own obscene amounts of land.

    Did you just make the argument that they are brilliant industrious mechanics? Trolling at its finest.

    The royal family is and idea from the Middle Ages that should have no relevance today.



  • Posts: 1,338 ✭✭✭ Melina Fast Appliance


    The bigger issues facing the UK are far more about its present day political systems and structures. It's shown itself to be capable of a lot of weird instability in recent years and you can clearly see the first-past-the-post system and de facto two party system are problematic and in need of serious reforms.

    The monarchy will, in all likelihood, just shrink to a symbolic smaller thing, more like NL or the three Scandinavian countries.

    There's very little likelihood of the UK declaring itself a republic anytime soon, but I could see Kate and William being a lot more like their Dutch counterparts, with a lot less fuss and just going around cutting ribbons. Charlie will be the one who does the dismantling and downgrading.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,775 ✭✭✭monseiur


    Agree 100% and the stats prove it, England is the 6th most visited in the world, France is no. 1

    France 83 million visitors annually

    USA 76 '' ''

    Spain 75 '' ''

    China 59 '' ''

    Italy 52 '' ''

    UK 35 '' ''

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


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