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Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,577 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    How is it remotely workable? Aren't the rules for female soccer the same as male? Or for track and field with sprinting or marathon running? Boxing as well while we are at it, rugby, tennis, name any sport and how you would change the rules to make them equal, if as you imply they are not equal right now.

    Please answer the above.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,180 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    Punching anyone in the face, the effects can be serious, dangerous, and so safely rules and regulations are introduced all the time in sports to ensure player’s safety. Do you think it would be unreasonable to discipline a player for deliberately spiking the ball into a players face? Players in all sorts of sports have been disciplined for tweets disagreeing with referee’s decisions, I’m sure it wouldn’t be beyond the bounds of possibility to change the rules to mitigate the sorts of injuries being reported in an article I looked up (because I’ll be honest, seeing a girl take a ball to the face is not something I wish to actually see, and I can avoid it by simply not viewing the clip in the tweet) -

    https://news.yahoo.com/female-volleyball-player-testifies-physical-185218911.html



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,180 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    Like I said earlier - I’m sure the sport’s governing bodies could put their collective heads together, bring in outside agencies as they often do, and come up with ways to make the sport fair for everyone involved, similar to the way helmets were made mandatory at all levels in hurling a few years ago to prevent head injuries -

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/hurling-helmets-compulsory-at-all-levels-1.1229780



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,577 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    You haven't answered the question at all.

    You are the only now saying changing the rules will make it fair, when the rules are already the same for most sports like the ones I mentioned. You said they can be changed to make them more "equal".

    I just want an example of what rules can be changed to make it more equal, other than keeping sports segregated by sex as they are now.

    1 example, just 1.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,180 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    Well there’s your one example surely? Introduce a new rule where participants are not discriminated against on the basis of gender - job done, wrap it up, we’re done here 👍



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,577 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,638 ✭✭✭plodder



    Punching anyone in the face, the effects can be serious, dangerous, and so safely rules and regulations are introduced all the time in sports to ensure player’s safety. Do you think it would be unreasonable to discipline a player for deliberately spiking the ball into a players face?

    How do you tell if it is deliberate? Volleyball is a sport where people have to accept the ball being fired over the net at speed. If anything, the intent would normally be to avoid an opponent, and hit the ball off the ground. It's the same in tennis. You can hit the ball straight at your opponent and maybe in social competitions it's not considered good practice but it is perfectly legal.

    “The opposite of 'good' is 'good intentions'”



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,180 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    I know you said sex, I said gender. What’s your problem now? You asked for one example to make any sport more equal, and you got it. You surely don’t expect I’m going to limit myself to playing by your rules when we’re both equals already? Or when I say equal, do you imagine I think we’re the same?

    I only ask because I’m still trying to figure out if you actually believe jockeys and basketball players emerge from the womb on a saddle with a basketball in hand, or is it actually a fact that all humans are created equal?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,180 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    From watching the play surely? Of course there’s a risk involved in the game but that girl sounds like she ended up with severe injuries which could only happen if it were a deliberate act on the part of the other player. Accidents will happen of course, but people use their judgment in these situations all the time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,577 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    My “problem” is the same as it has been, we now have a movement that try and mark this resistance to biological males competing in female sports (at the expense of females) as some form of oppression. It’s just another manifestation of male privilege and biological women getting fucked over again in society.

    No clue (again) with what you mean by equal and if humans are created equal. For a start, we aren’t created, we are an evolved species, nothing created us. Of course jockeys etc don’t emerge with a sporting tool, don’t be so facetious. Sports and games have rules and so forth, you were saying maybe there is a way to make them more “equal”, I’ve asked for how that is possible and what could be done. If it’s some sort of quip that games and sports are geared towards males more, and that’s why we see the different results/numbers etc over females, that’s just a fickle way of skipping over the biological facts that males and females are vastly different.

    You already know this though, look at soccer, rugby, boxing, tennis or any sport requiring physical output. There is your evidence, and that is why sports are segregated by sex. To make it equal.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,233 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,638 ✭✭✭plodder



    How could it "only happen if it were a deliberate act"? Maybe at Olympic level, the skill levels are so high that you could have a suspicion about it, but you could never prove it, since intent is a state of mind. But, at high school level, I don't think you could even have a reasonable suspicion. In any case, it's not against the rules. You could never outlaw it because you could never tell the difference between a deliberate and an accidental hit. It's not like rugby where specific kinds of tackle are against the rules, because they are dangerous, they aren't an essential part of the game, and most important they can easily be identified. Though it's interesting that the net is 19 cm lower in women's volleyball. So, people who played the male game definitely have an advantage when it comes to spiking, if they switch to the women's game.

    “The opposite of 'good' is 'good intentions'”



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,180 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    Intent is determined all the time, based upon reasonable doubt - people charged with an offence are entitled to the presumption of innocence until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt. The same principle applies in sports, which is why sports have disciplinary procedures and all that sort of stuff. Volleyball is but one specific example in many thousands of different sports, but if they’re not going to make aiming the ball at a players face a foul, then make wearing face shields mandatory, like they did in hurling with helmets, in order to prevent injuries.

    https://www.drducic.com/files/2021/02/Volleyball-related-adult-maxillofacial-trauma-injuries-min.pdf



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,180 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    “a manifestation of male privilege” 🙄

    When did you get so woke Frank? 😂


    You tell me not to be so facetious while you pretend you don’t understand what’s meant by all humans are created equal and how it applies in the context of Human Rights; you were even able to cite from the Declaration of Independence so there’s no doubt you at least have a passing familiarity with the concept, yet you expect I should treat you like you’re an idiot. I’m not going to do that, but what I will do is point out that I was referring to how it applies in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights -

    All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

    https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights


    You can argue the toss about how the word ‘brotherhood’ is yet another example of male privilege if you like 😒



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,496 ✭✭✭Large bottle small glass


    Did you ever play a physical contact sport?

    The only way to make rugby safe for females playing with males is to make it tag rugby.

    Forgetting all about thuggish behaviour etc the essence of rugby IS the physical contest. It won't be rugby if you make it a one category sport.

    The amount of comments from people in relation to sports who haven't a clue about any sports is quite something.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,180 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    Yes I did, and no I won’t forget about thuggish behaviour because while the essence of any sport is indeed the physical and psychological contest, the sad reality is that there are a tiny number of absolute bell-ends who don’t care about anyone but themselves. They should be rooted out of any sport. Fairly basic stuff that applies in any domain, that even if one never played sports, they could understand that much.

    It’s taught from childhood, yet some adults persist in their thinking that nobody else is relevant in their world, “facts don’t care about feelings” type numbnuts. I’ve no doubt you’ve experienced them at some point in your life.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,638 ✭✭✭plodder


    So, how would you determine the intent in that video?

    I'd say most volleyball players wouldn't be in favour of requiring helmets. Are they even allowed? The same principle would apply to lots of other sports as well, eg soccer. Should soccer players wear helmets too?

    “The opposite of 'good' is 'good intentions'”



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,180 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    I wouldn't plodder, tbh, because I'm not going to watch the video. From her testimony given before the State legislature it appears McNabb was left physically and mentally incapacitated by her injuries, which is enough indication as far as I'm concerned that the video is gruesome - not something I want to witness -

    A transgender rival from Highlands High School hit the ball, which knocked McNabb unconscious.

    'I was severely injured in a high school volleyball game by a transgender athlete on the opposing team,' McNabb said on Tuesday.

    'I suffered from a concussion and neck injury that to this day I am still recovering from.

    'Other injuries I still suffer from today include impaired vision, partial paralysis on my right side, constant headaches, as well as anxiety and depression.

    'I was unable to play the rest of my last volleyball season, and although I am currently playing softball I know I am not performing as well as I have in the past, because of my injury.'

    She said her academic performance has been harmed, and she now needs 'accommodations at school for testing'.

    She said she was not able to 'learn, retain, comprehend' as before.

    'I could go on and on about how this has affected my life,' McNabb said.

    First step anyways would be to refer to the code of conduct, and we're not off to a great start -

    Page not found - USA Volleyball

    So check the Governance manual -

    image.png

    The official USA Volleyball Indoor Rules Book (adobe.com)

    Then interview the player in question to allow them the chance to explain themselves, and determine appropriate sanctions thereafter.

    Then review if there is a significant issue with players receiving facial injuries during play, and if there is - introduce mandatory face shields as part of the rules of participating in the game. Some players may not like the idea, but it's for the safety of all players of the game. I'm not concerned with whether or not soccer players should or shouldn't wear protective gear, but if there's an issue with players receiving concussion injuries as a result of heading the ball for example, then those governing the rules of the sport should review the issue, and it appears they're doing that -

    Brain injury expert calls for ban on heading in football - BBC Sport

    Helmets IMO are a fcuking abomination, they're uncomfortable af, but there is overwhelming evidence that they are effective in reducing the risk of severe injuries, and on that basis it's not an unreasonable measure to introduce, that if anyone wants to participate in the sport, it's made clear to them that they must wear the proper equipment in order to participate in the sport.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,867 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    You are not answering questions because you know you are talking rubbish. Trying to distract from the dangers posed to women from biological males who identify as females by talking about safety rules, disagreeing with referees decisions etc.

    What safety rules and regulations can you introduce into boxing to stop someone getting punched in the head, face or the body?

    What safety rules can you introduce into rugby to stop tackling?

    I've come to the conclusion that you know nothing about sport. I'm also guessing you don't have any daughters because you wouldn't be too impressed if one of them was getting into the ring to fight a biological male. I'd be fairly confident you'd be worried for her safety.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,638 ✭✭✭plodder


    I wouldn't plodder, tbh, because I'm not going to watch the video. From her testimony given before the State legislature it appears McNabb was left physically and mentally incapacitated by her injuries, which is enough indication as far as I'm concerned that the video is gruesome - not something I want to witness -

    Then take it from me. There's no way you can tell if it was deliberate or accidental.

    The rule book you linked says nothing about what happens, or should happen to the ball (other than the rules related to point scoring) after it passes over the net. You can hit it as hard as you like. One assumes you are expected to hit it as hard as you can, in order to score the point.

    Then interview the player in question to allow them the chance to explain themselves, and determine appropriate sanctions thereafter.

    Then review if there is a significant issue with players receiving facial injuries during play, and if there is - introduce mandatory face shields as part of the rules of participating in the game. Some players may not like the idea, but it's for the safety of all players of the game. I'm not concerned with whether or not soccer players should or shouldn't wear protective gear, but if there's an issue with players receiving concussion injuries as a result of heading the ball for example, then those governing the rules of the sport should review the issue, and it appears they're doing that -

    Changing the rules like that is just not going to happen.

    Brain injury expert calls for ban on heading in football - BBC Sport


    Helmets IMO are a fcuking abomination, they're uncomfortable af, but there is overwhelming evidence that they are effective in reducing the risk of severe injuries, and on that basis it's not an unreasonable measure to introduce, that if anyone wants to participate in the sport, it's made clear to them that they must wear the proper equipment in order to participate in the sport

    Introducing helmets to women's sport to protect them from males, is not going to happen imo. Though it seems they are used by some in volleyball. So, they are allowed.

    “The opposite of 'good' is 'good intentions'”



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,180 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    I've come to the conclusion that you know nothing about sport. I'm also guessing you don't have any daughters because you wouldn't be too impressed if one of them was getting into the ring to fight a biological male. I'd be fairly confident you'd be worried for her safety.


    I wouldn’t be too impressed with the scumbag who thinks it should be acceptable for anyone to box the head off another person and call that a sport. I guess we all have our standards.



    Whether it does or doesn’t happen eventually is really neither here nor there as we’re just spitballing and you asked me what I would do. That’s what I’d do if I were genuinely concerned enough about an issue to the point where I would campaign to have those measures introduced, or change the rules or whatever I thought were necessary or appropriate. I remember lads scoffing at the notion of helmets being made mandatory in hurling, now it’s just standard, and while there are still the few who complain about it, they know that if they’re not willing to wear the helmet, they don’t get to participate in the sport. The sport isn’t going to die because someone imagines the sport wouldn’t be anything without them 🙄



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,867 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    I wouldn’t be too impressed with the scumbag who thinks it should be acceptable for anyone to box the head off another person and call that a sport. I guess we all have our standards.

    So, you think everyone who engages in or watches boxing is a scumbag. Right so.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,577 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    I am not "woke", I can see things for what they are. Caitlyn Jenner getting women of the year...privileged white male getting one over on women yet again. Add a few trans athletes to that and you get the idea.

    So where does biological male participation in female sports factor on the "born free and qual in dignity and rights"? No one has a right to play in any sport, and even more so no one has the right take away rights of biological females because they "feel" a certain way, and bring physiological advantages with them into sports.

    Again though, I will ask you, how can changes in the current rule set (you can pick the sport) be made to make things more "equal" as you put it? Maybe a height restriction for basketball to make it equal? Or telling boxers they can only throw one power punch each round perhaps?

    You can pick the sport, and make the change. Go!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,577 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    irony.jpg

    This post would hilarious if it wasn't so blinded.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,180 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    I know only too well you’re not woke Frank, that’s why when you of all people use a term like “male privilege”, I know you’re only interested in taking the piss. The rules of this website prohibit me from expressing how I actually feel about that, because I’m compelled to be civil. Pain in the arse but I’m not all that bothered that I’m interested in seeing that rule changed, just like I’m not all that bothered about people who are transgender having the right to compete in sports in accordance with their preferred gender. Other people are interested in seeing that rules which permit them to do so being changed, so in answer to your question - any sport where people are not treated as equals and are denied the opportunity to participate in sports in accordance with their preferred gender.

    You’re wrong in claiming that nobody has a right to play in any sport, rights only have any meaning within the context of law, you can’t just go making stuff up to suit yourself and expect everyone else to adhere to your beliefs when they are equally protected from discrimination as you are. Rather than try to convince you how wrong you are though, I’ll be willing to bet that you aren’t interested enough to see your own ideology through.

    It’d still be funny if you made the evening news by attempting to glue yourself to a snooker table or trying to hop the fences at Cheltenham all the same in the name of your ideology 😁



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,577 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    I don't need to be "woke" to use terms like I have. I have a pretty good understanding of history and it's plain for anyone to see, in particular in restricting women's rights over the years, like abortion access, being able to vote etc. So no, I am not taking the piss, believe it or not you don't have to be "woke" (useless term) to be an advocate for women's rights. I was raised by very strong and important women to me, so give me a break with using "woke" when I am just being a good bloody human.

    Where in the law does it say someone has a "right" to participate in sports? What of the obstacles in the way (outside of rights) that would prohibit someone, like the money needed for motorsport for example? Are they being denied a "right" because they don't have the money to take part in that sport?

    I am not expecting anyone to adhere to my "beliefs", this is my position and it goes against yours, and it is easy to cut through your position because it is mostly anti-science and has "feelings" applied to it. You mention human rights but that has no bearing on sports or this topic, you are indeed blinded by a faith based ideology, I have asked multiple times for an example of this "equal" playing field you are trying to pedal. You have yet to answer that still.

    Pain in the arse but I’m not all that bothered that I’m interested in seeing that rule changed, just like I’m not all that bothered about people who are transgender having the right to compete in sports in accordance with their preferred gender.

    So why are you posting anything in this thread? Do you have any interest in sports at all? (I will say you don't based on this)

    I wouldn’t be too impressed with the scumbag who thinks it should be acceptable for anyone to box the head off another person and call that a sport. I guess we all have our standards.

    So that means boxing, MMA, judo, taekwondo, kick boxing, Thai boxing, all are somehow offensive to you?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,880 ✭✭✭corks finest


    I'm a normal thinking man ( afaik)

    Grandfather of 14

    Don't want banned obviously,but I'll be buck honest.

    It's frightening and wrong if any athlete has any clear advantage over another competitor

    Be It a man in a womans race/ boxing match etc etc

    Or vive versa

    It's beyond mad ,and wrong.

    Solution - if you're transgender compete against other transgender ppl

    Know ATM that's obviously not possible as there's not enough trans ppl on the different sports to compete against each other,b

    ut FFS how can a person with the physique of a man be allowed to compete in a race against women

    In a womans race etc- doesn't make sense



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,180 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    Where in the law does it say someone has a "right" to participate in sports?

    Participation in sport is recognised as a human right under the terms of the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR), as a component of ‘participation in the cultural life of the community’. It has also been declared a human right in the Council of Europe’s Sport for All Charter, the UNESCO International Charter of Physical Education, Physical Activity and Sport and the Olympic Charter. UN member states which have ratified the legal treaties associated with the UDHR undertake to assure the rights involved and to submit periodical reports to the UN on their progress in doing so.

    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/16138171.2022.2032920?journalCode=ress20



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,999 ✭✭✭Enduro


    We're all good on agreeing that gender could be used to define categories in sports (such as the Boston Marathon). Where you seem to have a problem is in accepting that the vast majority of sports do not do this, but instead categoirise by sex. Someone's gender is as relevant to their sex category as it is to their age or weight category, It has no bearing in other words. That's more than an opinion. That's by definition. If you think otherwise, and as a result of this that the rules are illegal under Irish human rights law then you or anyone else is free to challenge the rules on that basis. Until such a challenge is upheld then all that is is your perspective Nobody , including sports bodies, are bound to operate under your perpective until someone gets that perpective established through a cournt ruling. Funily enough there is absolute no sign or trace of that happening whatsoever.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,999 ✭✭✭Enduro


    To re-iterate... If you think that the rules of any sport are illegal under Irish human rights law then you or anyone else is free to challenge the rules on that basis. Until such a challenge is upheld then all that is is your perspective Nobody, including sports bodies, is bound to operate under your perspective until someone gets that perspective established through a court ruling. Funnily enough there is absolutely no sign or trace of that happening whatsoever.



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