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Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 116 ✭✭Kyokushin Grappler


    Look up Fallon Fox's [A Man that didn't transition to Female until his 30s. And then started competing in MMA] MMA fights and see if Men who transition to Women should be allowed to compete in Women's sports.

    If a guy believes he's meant to be a Woman. Fine go ahead, but compete as the Gender you were born as or don't compete at all.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Burning down cities?

    Youve lost the hinges. What burned down cities?

    Lia Thomas didn’t burn down a city. She won a race and you’re equivocating them, and other trans persons competition in sport to wanton violence. Grab a hold of something.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    That’s the decision the new Biden rule takes



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    You think that little 11 year old girl in TN, the only trans kid in her sport, should have a league of one?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,410 ✭✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    which one is this?

    I know of the case in West Virginia where the trans kid “has lived as a girl in all aspects of her life for years and receives puberty-delaying treatment and estrogen hormone therapy, so has not experienced (and will not experience) endogenous puberty,” In that case I'd have no problem, and I'd say the vast vast majority of people would have no problem with her competing with / against other girls.

    I saw another trans girl from Texas mentioned, not sure what sport they play, if any. If they're on puberty blockers they should be able to play with the girls, if not they should play with the boys, or if there's no boys team choose a different sport.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    that's the one, paywall free link: https://wapo.st/41hHiqM

    The same distinctions you're making are also in the Biden draft rule.

    Which is why it's so frustrating that Republicans absolutely are lashing out at it, for them it's total bans or else, and I think you and I agree apropos to all the above they are being a bit unreasonable, and frankly are twisting it into culture war issues not really concerned with the spirit of ensuring sports are sporting, but more with the societal ostracizing of trans persons and their personal ideologies across the board. All that warped logic that trans existence = erasing women.

    As a reminder to any numpties who think trans existence erases women such as JK Rowling ("the lived experiences of women" etc), uh, it's been 54 years since the Stonewall riots and you still have hetero existences and life experiences. The gays never erased you or me either. They trotted this same logic out in the decades past to try and ban miscegenation, interracial and gay marriages too.

    Has anyone else here read the Biden rule yet or have I been talking to a wall on that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,620 ✭✭✭J.O. Farmer


    You mean the Biden rules discussed here

    Basically they seem to align with the way most sports are going anyway. It would seem to allow banning biological males who have gone through puberty from female categories of sport on competitive or risk of injury grounds.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,867 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    I was hoping we could stick to reality.

    The reality is that male puberty gives transwomen a huge physical advantage when it comes to sports. An unfair advantage. And that's why transwomen shouldn't compete against biological females.

    If a transwoman never goes through puberty as a result of taking puberty blockers, I think they wouldn't have an unfair physical advantage so I'd probably be ok with that. Although I would have a problem with prescribing puberty blockers to prepubescent kids unless it was absolutely medically necessary.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 962 ✭✭✭Burty330


    Lexi says the decision is unfair. The women feel its unfair they have to compete against a biological man. For Lexi to compete means the unfairness gets pushed onto others. There's no situation where both sides can win in this ongoing conundrum



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    historically the little people being discriminated against win in the end.

    The white folk who 'feel it's unfair they have to compete against negros' lost their appeals in the end, too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,205 ✭✭✭eggy81


    She’s saying he had his penis exposed in the changing area. And 2 years before that it would be a crime for a man to expose his penis in a female changing room? Seems pretty straight forward.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,825 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    Money locked website.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 17,853 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    Not sure why you keep on bringing race into it other than to ramp up the emotions, the scenarios are not comparable unless you believe there is no athletic difference between males and females and that you only want a single open category for all sports (all weights, all disabilities, all genders).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    "As the governing body, we acknowledge we’re still on a path of education and understanding."

    As I've said before, eugenicists etc thought they had a lot figured out a century ago. A lot of poor decisions were made as a result.

    A lot of plebes similarly think they are armchair experts about gender-specific lung capacity etc. today.

    Seems comparable to me.

    Here the body indicates they are making a decision on shaky principle that is open to being changed in the future. Hell they don't actually give any specificity on the nature of their ruling ("accounting for and balancing a range of factors"). History, as I said, will eventually repeat itself.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,001 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    Ffs you don't need to be an expert on anything to know that there are physical differences between males and females, and many of those differences lead to athletic advantages. Humans have known this since of the dawn of time and nothing has changed. Anyone trying to deny this is living in cloud cuckoo land. Ideology does not trump basic biological facts



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Many millennia fewer's worth of information on trans athleticism however.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 17,853 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    Eugenicists? Really? you're really circling the drain on this one Overheal, trying to tug on heartstrings does not help your argument due to it's reductive nature.

    Actually, show that the weight/disability/gender category are influenced by eugenics and build up from there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    You're the only one getting emotional. I simply pointed out the rhythm of history, citing modern example.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 17,853 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    You're constantly bringing in the negro leagues and now eugenics, they are in no way comparable with gender, weight and disability category in modern sports unless you are also claiming that sports bodies are racist eugenicists and rather than actually presenting an argument that it is comparable to the negro leagues you're now claiming other users are getting emotional. Now you're down in the drain.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    As I said you're the only one being emotional about this, I simply stated my observation on historical rhythm, and you insist on continuing to dig at nothing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 17,853 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    You're comparing those who don't agree with trans-women competing in female competition with racists and now eugenicists, clearly with nothing to back it up and don't like being called out on it, re-quoting my posts doesn't add anything here. Again, if you want to actually argue those points, you can start backing it up, there has been no "historical rhythm" to gender, weight and disability sport categories except to add them and allow others to compete at sports as well.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    no "historical rhythm" to gender, weight and disability sport categories except to add them and allow others to compete at sports as well.

    That's a fine strawman but that's clearly not what I said.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,620 ✭✭✭J.O. Farmer


    History might suggest creation of another category for those ineligible for the female categories but at a disadvantage in the male category either through hormone suppression or not having gone through male puberty.

    The paralympics rather than the negro leagues would be the more relevant historical example.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,646 ✭✭✭plodder



    Here the body indicates they are making a decision on shaky principle that is open to being changed in the future. Hell they don't actually give any specificity on the nature of their ruling ("accounting for and balancing a range of factors").

    I kind of agree with you on that. These decisions are always going to be controversial because there is no way to objectively balance fairness against inclusivity. They are completely different things. Until women are prepared to stand up and demand the right to their own category in sport, this won't go away.

    “The opposite of 'good' is 'good intentions'”



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 17,853 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    I don't think you know what you're saying anymore hence the absurdity of bringing eugenics and the negro leagues into it. It means next time you call someone racist, you won't be taken seriously.

    To give your argument one final shove into oblivion:

    Countries without race problems also have gender, weight and disability categories for sport, implying that the negro leagues occurring in a country with a racism problem somehow means that gender categories will be revisited is absurd, you may as well proclaim the earth could be flat for all the relevance it has.

    We'll leave the eugenics argument alone, I'm not sure what you were thinking there.

    In other news, there is now a non-inclusive World Transplant Games starting today and an ultra-runner of previous good standing has been disqualified for use of a car to come third in a competition.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,498 ✭✭✭Large bottle small glass


    "In other news, there is now a non-inclusive World Transplant Games starting today and an ultra-runner of previous good standing has been disqualified for use of a car to come third in a competition."


    He'll be on the right side of history, you'll see..😀



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,867 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    A lot of plebes similarly think they are armchair experts about gender-specific lung capacity etc. today.

    Seems comparable to me.

    🙄

    image.png




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,180 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    To give your argument one final shove into oblivion:


    You’re not shoving the argument anywhere though, you’re completely avoiding it by claiming it’s absurd, and then not addressing it at all. The point of making the comparison is on the basis of protection from discrimination against people in in society on the basis of their characteristics or membership of a particular group, in Western society anyway, particularly what have become known as the grounds of discrimination in human rights law.


    In other news, there is now a non-inclusive World Transplant Games starting today and an ultra-runner of previous good standing has been disqualified for use of a car to come third in a competition.


    You made that facetious analogy before, but couldn’t stick the landing then, and it’s still not any way comparable. You’d have to go the opposite way - an athlete who competes in the World Transplant Games who wants to compete in the Olympics, and whether or not they would have an unfair advantage over other competitors from other countries. That argument was floated when Oscar Pistorius competed in the Olympics.

    I have no doubt that similar arguments would be made if an athlete wished to compete in a sporting event where they were perceived to have an advantage on the basis that they had a fresh set of pre-loved organs transplanted only a year earlier, if they started winning competitions.

    Arguments opposed to their participation wouldn’t be based upon scientific evidence, no more than the arguments to prohibit athletes who are transgender from competing in sports with athletes who aren’t transgender, are based upon scientific evidence. They’re based entirely upon the assumption that permitting athletes who are transgender to compete in accordance with their preferred gender would be detrimental to the sport. Same tired old arguments that were used against women, against anyone who isn’t white, against anyone who is perceived in some way to have an advantage, which fuels accusations of doping, when just plain sexism, racism and homophobia don’t make for credible arguments worthy of being considered legitimate, incontrovertible scientific evidence, as opposed to just bullshìt excuses.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 17,853 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    a) that point of comparison doesn't work because it was in one country which had a huge racism problem, the reason it was being used was to try and paint it as a racism issue when it isn't. "At best" the poster is implying that the science behind male and female differences in sporting ability is science that will end up debunked somehow when there is no scientific basis for it. The argument is purely inclusion and all that brings or fairness and all that brings, those arguing on the inclusion side fail when their argument is brought to it's logical conclusion (no gender, weight, disability categories anymore).

    b) I haven't had a transplant, is it ethical for me to compete in the transplant games? Or maybe use a car to run the 100m because that's how fast I feel I can go. The reasons the games exist is because transplants take a huge toll on the body and in most but not all cases, athletes performance is degraded afterwards, this is a chance for them to draw attention to transplants (and getting people to tick the box to allow more to occur) and compete against people who have been through similar experiences.

    It becomes an argument into the absurd and arguments about living the life or the % being small don't work because fundamentally what is occurring is unfair and as long as fairness has primacy in sport, the rules and regulations will be changed accordingly (as I predicted back near the beginning of this thread) to try and paint multiple sporting organisations worldwide as either racists, eugenicists or transphobes doesn't work and isn't credible.

    And it is an awful situation to be in that someone, through no fault of their own, is unable to compete at the top levels in sport in their assigned gender because it's unfair to the other athletes, but no science or time will change that because once you accept the science, then the rules will also be entirely driven by science.



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