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The 2023 All Ireland Senior Football Championship (Sam Maguire Cup)

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,635 ✭✭✭MacDanger


    It might turn out to be a blessing in the long run but we wanted to win today and we didn't.

    Poor enough spectacle for the neutral but there was a good crowd at the match considering it was Easter sun and lashing rain. It may not have seemed like it on TV but there was a great championship atmosphere for most of the game from when the goal went in to the last few mins.

    As others have said, we went for goals way too early instead of remaining calm and working scores; I'd have thought we'd have enough experience to stick to the game plan, not a great sign

    Well done to the Rossies



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,369 ✭✭✭SqueakyKneecap


    6 weeks off might be ideal for the likes of Conroy, Cillian O'Connor returning from injury but it's a nightmare for lads like O'Shea and O'Donoghue who have had a fantastic Spring. It stops momentum and leaves a lot of time to lose sharpness. Even Galway losing in the Hyde would see them a month off and leave them absolutely prone to a battle hardened provincial loser/winner. Challenge matches are barely FBD league preparation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,635 ✭✭✭MacDanger


    As 3rd seeds, our first game in the group will be away to the 1st seeds so it'll be a tough one to start with. Lose and we're likely not topping the group meaning we'll have 3 games on the bounce to make a QF



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,803 ✭✭✭StupidLikeAFox


    I think you need to get some perspective here - the provincial championships are two or three games. Dublin and kerry won't get out of third gear before Sam kicks off. Most teams will have only have 2 or 3 extra games in, Mayo will be well up to match fitness by the time they get to the pre-QF stage.

    Roscommon are in a worse position imo, imagining they go and win Connacht then by the time the QF rolls around they are deep into a very long season, whereas mayo have had a decent break in the middle to regroup



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 698 ✭✭✭Rockfish


    Thats a pessimistic view, i wouldnt be worried about playing any of the top seeds, 1 in 3 chance it could Galway



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,466 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    They might not get out of third gear but they will have matches that will be a step above friendlies. As well they will have home advantage against the third seed for there first match. Now while All first seeds will want to avoid Mayo they will have a chance of drawing Westmeath or maybe a lower D1 team depending on who makes Provincial finals.

    3rd seeds will Westmeath, one of Roscommon/ Galway more than likely, and two of Tyrone Monoghan or Derry. Regrouping is grand in theory but a six week break is not really regrouping. Losing next round would have been much more preferable.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,540 ✭✭✭recyclebin


    My Predictions:

    1st Seeds: Dublin, Kerry, Galway, Tyrone

    2nd Seeds: Louth, Clare, Sligo, Armagh

    3rd Seeds: Mayo, Roscommon, Monaghan, Donegal

    4th Seeds: Derry, Cork, Kildare, Westmeath

    Galway and Roscommon could swap places.

    Ulster is a lot more wide open and Cavan could sneak in there as second seeds and knock Kildare out.

    Leinster runners up could really be anyone of 4 teams: Louth/Meath/Westmeath/Offaly.


    I don't think provincial finalists should get seeded so high going and only provincial winners should be guaranteed entry to Sam next year. The seedings should all be league based as it's a fairer system. Otherwise Kerry and Dublin will be No.1 seeds most years.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    The provincial runners up seedings gives more relevance to the provincial championships, I think it should be kept for this alone otherwise you might aswell just guarantee the teams in division 1 and two (all but bottom team in sub 2) entry to Sam.

    It actually makes the league campaign even more relevant, particularly in division 2 where finishing in a higher place really matters!!

    They’ve already sidelined weaker teams enough IMO, I think of you reach a provincial final you deserve a crack at the groups.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,377 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    They haven't sidelined weaker teams.

    They have just created the kind of graded competition that is absolutely normal in practically every other A-level competition in sport.

    Being in the Tailteann should not be the insult some are making it out to be.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    I wasn’t trying to put down the Tailteann cup, more retain the relevance of the provincial championship. Getting to a provincial final should still have value, I’d prefer that has more value over a league position.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,885 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    For me the happy medium would be that provincial runner-ups get into the groups, but aren't seeded 2. Instead they are seeded 2,3 or 4 based on their league position. So it would be the same 16 teams but it would lead to, probably, more equitable groups. Though a counter-point would be that it reduces the possibility of a group of death.

    e.g., based on recyclebins provincial predictions (and correcting his minor Donegal/Derry mistake). Number in brackets is league ranking, hopefully I haven't got it wrong. Provincial runner-ups in bold

    1st Seeds: Dublin, Kerry, Galway, Tyrone

    2nd Seeds: Mayo (1), Roscommon (3), Monaghan (6), Derry (8)

    3rd Seeds: Armagh (9), Donegal (10), Louth (11), Cork (12)

    4th Seeds: Kildare (13), Clare (17), Westmeath (20) Sligo (23)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,387 ✭✭✭Cavan_King


    As a Cavan supporter, I really enjoyed the Tailteann campaign last year and was devastated when we lost the Final.

    I have no problem with us having another crack at it this year. I’d feel we are better than some of the teams in the top 16 but the bottom line is we aren’t going to win Sam.

    The Tailteann is a cup we can win.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,466 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Also winning Tailteain guarantees you Sam entry the following year. If Meath or Kildare fail to make the Sam competition this year they will want to win Tailteain to gaurantee Sam entry next year as will teams like Clare, Limerick, Down Cavan etc.

    What needs to happen is that within 5 years to get to a situation where promotion and relegation becomes oart of the Sam/ Tailteain competition

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 698 ✭✭✭Rockfish


    "They’ve already sidelined weaker teams enough IMO, I think of you reach a provincial final you deserve a crack at the groups."

    Well maybe, if the provincial championships were all run off the same, ie seeded but they are not. Sligo will be in it after betaing London and more than likely NY, hardly fair? Weaker counties in other provinces done have such an easy route



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    It’s no different to the traditional difficult path that some teams have always had to navigate. Might aswell say that the Munster and Leinster champions shouldn’t automatically qualify either as they are effectively kerry and Dublins processions!

    I don’t think you should amend a rule now because some provinces are now much weaker than others. Also I think it’s better to have guaranteed at least 2 teams from each province for Sam to remain a proper all ireland. There could be years where you have only one team from one or two provinces , does anybody want that?



  • Posts: 123 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Tod is a gas man. I’d say serious regret about that arrogant opening post. So clear that he didn’t give Roscommon a chance yesterday.


    Now having to backtrack and reckons losing was a great thing and that mayo didn’t care about the game, but now has to contradict his opening post about how winning provincials last year which led to an easier path to a final is now a bad thing all because mayo won’t now be favourably seeded.


    egg on face stuff, but this is an annual thing for poor aul Tod who loves the torture. Up the Rossies



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,387 ✭✭✭Cavan_King


    I wonder if you asked the Sligo players and management would they prefer to go Tailteann or Sam what would they say?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,479 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    Christ, I have to answer this.

    Where did I say that losing was a great thing?

    My honest opinion is that I don't know if losing or winning was a good or bad thing for Mayo

    Only time will tell.

    I thought Mayo would beat Roscommon but they obviously didn't.

    Mayo have played poorly for three weeks now, not up to their early league standard.

    The group stages will tell if Mayo were just early league wonders like many are or are real contenders.

    I still think they have the potential to be the latter.

    Also I think being a third seed is not that bad when you see that the following will be two seeds.

    Sligo/New York

    Limerick/Clare

    Offaly/Meath/Louth/Westmeath.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 698 ✭✭✭Rockfish


    I dont care what they think, if they are good enough to compete for Sam they would be in Division 2, they got an easy route this year that isnt available to similar teams in other provinces due to seeding etc



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,540 ✭✭✭recyclebin


    Potentially there could be 4 or 5 teams from Division 3 and 4 in group stages for Sam. If Sligo and Westmeath end up in one group the games could be very one sided.

    The whole system is very poorly thought out. Fans won't know who or where and when they play until very late in the day.

    The likes of Cork could potentially end up in the Tailteann which does no good for anyone. They are not a bottom 16 team.

    The club and ladies championship structures are done a lot better where you're playing teams at your level and can be promoted and relegated based on results. Not on results from another province!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 685 ✭✭✭poppers


    The likes of Cork could potentially end up in the Tailteann which does no good for anyone. They are not a bottom 16 team.

    If the end up there its their own fault. They lost a munster quater final so you could also argue they should be out already.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,088 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Maybe Cork have some cunning plan. This was only a month ago.

    Storming second half sees Cork comfortably overcome Clare

    Cork 3-10 Clare 1-8

    Report by Kieran Shannon for the Irish Examiner newspaper

    The notion that Cork are on their way back to being a legitimate force and promotion contenders gained further credibility here after they ultimately comfortably dispatched of a Clare side that for the past six years have been very much a bogey team for them.

    Only once in the last five league or championship clashes between the sides had Cork emerged victorious but a massive second half performance saw them win at their ease in front of 2,596 people.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,021 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    They are absolutely sidelining the weaker teams, it is unfortunate that people in charge cannot see the long term effects of this. I think people are asleep at the wheel here.

    The most insidious change is that of entry to Sam Maguire. Previously every county was in the competition by default, now it is the opposite. Now the weaker counties are not in Sam Maguire.

    That matters, that is a huge change, both in segregating the provincials (which are going to be dead within years) and also in the effect it will have on culture within the weaker counties. Kids used to dream of winning the All Ireland, now their county is not even in it and haven't got close in their lifetime, what do you think will happen to the pool of talent there? What do you think happens in a world where kids have no history of competing in a sport?

    They are heading towards the same model as hurling, a segregated world where less than 10 teams compete and all the rest scratch about for minor trophies that mean little. You think kids in Fermanagh or Leitrim give a solid blue **** about Liam McCarthy trophy? Obviously they don't, they aren't in it and never will be.

    Go down this road and within years the provincials will be dead, it will be 50/50 if the Tailteann cup retains its guaranteed prize of a place in Sam, eventually it will all come down to league placing and hey presto we get the one thing we should have been avoiding at all costs, the scenario where the strong get stronger and the weak get weaker.

    I already know what people will say to this now, its already clear people can't see the woods for the trees. But in about 5 years time you will start to see the effects, and within 10 years a lot of people will be crying about where it all went wrong.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,377 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    We are not heading towards any segregated world.

    It has always been segregated.

    Kids can dream all they want about winning the All Ireland but it's never gonna happen for most counties. What good are the dreams of those kids in Wicklow, Limerick, Waterford, Fermanagh.

    They can dream of winning the Tailteann Cup and there should be no shame in that. What will help is if people stuck in the past stop telling them their is shame in it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,479 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    How do you reckon the it will be only 50/50 that the TC winner gets a place in the Sam Maguire?

    Where are you getting that from?

    I think that his the best incentive to come out of the TC.

    If a team are on the bubble for Sam Maguire inclusion (Limerick/Clare/Meath/Kildare) and they don't make it you can be sure they will take the TC seriously to avoid the same next year.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,037 ✭✭✭YabaDabaDooley


    Spot on. It was great to see Westmeath celebrate wildly after winning last years Tailteann Cup. That final v Cavan was an excellent game. I can see the Tailteann going from strength to strength as the years go by.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,021 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    Because its the same thinking that created these structures in the first place.

    By definition it will be the weaker teams in the TC, and when the weaker teams repeatedly finish bottom of the groups and take beatings from the top seeds, you will start to hear the cries from people lamenting these weaker teams taking a spot away from a "bigger" side.

    Hell, we are already hearing that now in this very thread and it hasn't even started yet!

    Those calls will come, and the 50/50 is how long the GAA will resist the call to change. Disagree all you want, but there is nothing outlandish about the scenario, people complaining about weak teams polluting their championship is exactly what leads to seeding in the first place.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,803 ✭✭✭StupidLikeAFox


    So called weaker teams have never had it so good in the history of the gaa

    On a given year a potential 24 out of 32 teams would have a shot of competing in sam based on league position in a normal year (depending on where the tailteann Cup winners and provincial finalists land). Any team can qualify for Sam by winning 2 or 3 provincial games.

    Do you think that if we keep the likes of carlow and laois in the Sam maguire that one day they are going to have a magical year and go all the way? Well the good news is they still have that option, and the even better news is that they also now have a much better option to compete in a competition they can win.

    Which do you think is better for the young players of weaker counties, witnessing repeated beatings year after year in a competition they will never win or competing in a competition they might actually win? I know which one I would pick - and you only have to look at the scenes from westmeath last year to see what it means to real gaa people.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,803 ✭✭✭StupidLikeAFox


    Exactly - there are senior, intermediate and junior championships in every county in the country and the club players there would take your hand off for a county medal. Not sure why it should be different at IC level



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