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Brexit Impact on Northern Ireland

17677798182108

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,114 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    All correct, but again not relevant to the point. More of the goods "coming in from sea" go through the North Channel than through the Irish Sea.

    The vast bulk of sea traffic to N.I. goes through the North Sea : a lesser amount through the Irish sea.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 76,934 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Which is true.

    But the border is between 'Britain' and 'Northern Ireland'.

    The trade routes themselves do not dictate the border because goods can come from or be landed anywhere.

    Do try to get your head around the concept of a 'border'.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,050 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    I really don't care whether people call it the Irish Sea border or the North Channel border. The name is not the important point here.

    The point is that had Brexit requires a hard border and a hard border, wherever it is located, is harmful to NI and harmful to the union. Hard Brexiters don't care about this or, at best, it's a price which they are happy for NI to pay if it means they can achieve something they consider to be more important. Those who do prioritise the wishes, interests and welfare of NI and the health of the union are therefore in an unfortunate position; the best they can manage is a damage limitation exercise; given that hard Brexit is being imposed on NI, what border arrangements will do the least harm?

    The answer is, of course, the Irish Sea/North Channel border; it has a much smaller economic and social impact than a land border would. EU and IRL would both have preferred a soft Brexit on terms that required no border at all, but that was not acceptable to the UK, so the best than they could do was to agree Brexit on terms that did not require a land border. And they were only able to agree that because, of course, the UK also recognised the need to avoid a land border; "no hard border" was one of the earliest of the Brexit red lines proclaimed by the UK. That was why the UK, when it insisted on a Brexit that would require a hard border, also aske for the NI protocol, so that it would not be a land border.

    The Irish Sea/North Channel border is bad, but it's the least bad option available, given the control of UK policy by a hard Brexit faction which has nothing but disdain for NI and indifference to the Union.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68 ✭✭ckeng


    So it turns out Johnson didn't lie when he told unionists there would be no border down the Irish Sea between GB and NI?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 76,934 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Well, I think we'll have a job convincing the British themselves that it's the North Channel border, they seem to like the Irish Sea border moniker. Pesky Republicans! 🙄

    the border in the Irish Sea 





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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,114 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    I am not going to lose sleep over what they call it. The calibre of British Prime Ministers in the past few decades years was probably not as good as it could or should have been, considering the size of the UK, the leaders they ended up with, and the current state of the UK.

    I sometimes wonder if some British / Unionist MPs had not been assassinated in different attacks by extremist Republicans ( IRA / INLA ) for their political views in the 70's and 80's ( Airey Neave, Bradford, Berry, Gow, Stronge etc actually murdered, with other attempts on others like Mrs Thatcher, Tebbit etc ), would the calibre of people attracted in to British politics have been better and would they have had better UK leadership this past year or 2, for example?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,050 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    I don't think the risk of assassination in the 70s or 80s comes into it at all. Teresa May entered Parliament in 1997; Boris Johnson in 2000; Liz Truss in 2010. They were appalling Prime Ministers, each worse than the last, but presumably most of the the alternative leaders who might have been elected in their place would have entered parliament at more or less the same time. If it's really true that the Tory parliamentary party was so unremittingly awful that, in an entire generation of MPs, May, Johnson and Truss were the best that could be found, it's a shocking indictment of the party, but its hard to say that the cause of this was some assassinations that took place thirty years before they entered parliament. We'd also have to explain why the assassinations were, after 30 years, still discouraging potentially good leaders from entering politics but were apparently not discouraging the hopelessly unfit.

    I think the true explanation is simpler. Since the Tory party switched to having the members elect the leader, the leader has been chosen by an electorate that doesn't know the candidates well, and has no idea which of them can provide effective leadership that will command the confidence of the parliamentary party, which is the primary thing the leader has to do. It's a bad system that produces demonstrably bad results, and it should be changed.

    Lest anybody think I'm being partisan about this, I'd argue that the rise of Jeremy Corbyn to the leadership of the Labour Party shows that the Labour Party has pretty much the same problem. It has just mattered a bit less because they've been out of office for so long.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 76,934 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Indeed.

    It is inner Tory party strife and jockeying for position that has us where we are. Cameron with Brexit Ref to try and heal Tory division, May, Johnson trying to save the party and get Brexit done, Truss for the 'you think Johnson was bad' comedy sideshow and now Sunak, who has thrown Unionists under a bus and hopes that having sidelined the ERG he can build a semi adult relationship with the EU and rebuild the Tory's.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 76,934 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Do you think Sunak is home and hosed re: The ERG @Peregrinus

    Could they rise again?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,050 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Actually, I don't think Sunak has "thrown Unionists under a bus". Opinion polls suggest that most unionists can distinguish between (a) the terms of Brexit as they affect NI, and (b) NI's place in the union. They may not like the WF but they recognise that, given the hard Brexit policy that Westminster is pursuing, the WF that Sunak has negotiated is actually the best thing for NI; it protects NI from worse harm which would ensue if the WF were not there.

    Obviously, if Sunak could get the Tory party to reverse course and pursue a softer Brexit, better options for NI would open up. But, realistically, Sunak's position in the party is very weak. Even if he wanted to do that (and it's not at all clear that he does) some very modest incremental movement in that direction is the most he could achieve. It's a bit of a stretch to say that Sunak has thrown anyone under a bus simply by failing to deliver something that it is not in his power to deliver.

    If any throwing under buses happened, it was when Westminster decided to pursue hard Brexit, and decided that the implications of that for NI and for the GFA were unimportant and did not need to be thought about. That was well before Sunak's time. And it was something cheered to the echo by the very section of unionism that now honks loudest about betrayal.

    Realistically, further amelioration of the Protocol has to be a project for the next term of government. Not even the most passionate opponents of the Protocol are calling on Westminster to do the obvious thing and pivot to soft Brexit now; they know the answer will be "No" and they don't want to hear that answer spoken out loud.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 76,934 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Sunak promised he would not agree a deal without consulting Unionists and like Boris and No Sea border that is what he did.

    Maybe not as far under the bus as Boris threw them, but under the bus all the same.

    P.S. When I refer to Unionists I mostly mean political Unionism.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,050 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Oh, I think he consulted the unionists. Did he promise that he wouldn't do a deal without the DUP's agreement? That would be a completely different promise and, yeah, if he made that promise he broke it.

    But I would be astonished if he made that promise. For obvious reasons, Brexiters will never accept that Brexit can only proceed on terms acceptable to NI; still less on terms acceptable to one community in NI. If that were the case, Brexit could not proceed at all, as Sunak well knows.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 76,934 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    No, he didn't promise to do a deal without Unionist agreement, he promised to consult them and didn't, he also said ' he heard them “loud and clear” and agreed with their opposition to EU laws being “imposed” on the North as part of the Northern Ireland protocol and assured them he would address that in any new deal.

    You only need to listen to Unionists now to hear how he got on with that.

    Sunak's main concern was not NI, it was the ERG rebels in his own party he needed to deal with. Once he was able to sideline them, NI, sadly, didn't matter. It never really has with the Tories.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,050 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Sorry, just seen this one.

    They could rise again, but it doesn't seem to me that that's the trajectory they're on.

    There's a public disenchantment with Brexit as she is lived which means that the issue will never have the traction or give the ERG the influence that, for one brief shining moment, it did. Reportedly the ERG is a shadow of its former self — most of its members have left, and those who remain are fighting one another like cats in a bag. I don't really see a way back from here in the foreseeable future.

    I expect the Tories to be creased in the next election, and to retire sulking into the shadows to lick their wounds and have A Bit Of A Think. Sunak will retire from his position and go off to enjoy the consolations of billionairedom. There will then be a contest in the party between different factions to determine who will control it during what is likely to be a significant period in opposition.

    A certain amount depends on which MPs lose their seats in the election, and which retain them. The faction that holds the safest seats will be (relatively) strengthened within the party and may be best positioned to seize the leadership, but I haven't seen any analysis of which faction this might be.

    It's all a bit up in the air because, as we know, if there is a leadership contest it will be resolved ultimately by the rank-and-file members, and they have a track record of choosing woeful leaders. So if a crushing defeat in the general election shows that the party needs to do more to appeal to the sane centre, the members are quite capable of choosing a leader from the looney fringe. Such a leader may not be in a strong position, though, since the parliamentary party may want to steer a course quite different from the one that will appeal to the members. And, when the party is out of office, the leader doesn't have anything like the same amount of patronage available to him to keep his colleagues on side. So the next term of government could be a torrid time for the Tories.

    Even if the looney right do make a comeback in these circumstances, I don't think they are going to make Brexit their flagship issue, so it won't be the ERG, as such, that rises again. If you can bear to, study the Daily Mail over the next six to twelve months to identify the issues that will form the basis of their agenda.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,853 ✭✭✭rock22


    @FrancieBrady wrote "No, he didn't promise to do a deal without Unionist agreement, he promised to consult them and didn't"

    But did he not make a point of going to NI and consulting with all political parties. Not once but at least twice, before meeting with Von Der Leyen?

    It seems he consulted far and wide. The fact that one extreme of unionism doesn't like the deal ( is there any deal they would like?? ) does not mean they weren't consulted.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 76,934 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Contrast what he told Unionism he would address (quoted above) what he told them the WF was (the many accusations of over selling) and what Unionism says is the outcome.

    Basically what he did was get enough to sideline the ERG and left anti-Protocol/WF Unionism to swing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,050 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    I think maybe we need to divide unionists into three groups:

    1. Those who support the WF (even if they think it needs to be improved)
    2. Those who think the WF needs to be improved (but realise that NI is better off with the WF than it would be without)
    3. Those who will never support the WF on any terms.

    The line between group 1 and group 2 is pretty blurred. It's perhaps really a matter of emphasis — does somebody think first of all/speak first of all about the problems the protocol causes, or the problems the protocol averts?

    The line between group 2 and group 3 may also be a bit blurry, but for different reasons. Some people may pretend they are open to being persuaded that modifications to the protocol are good enough, when in fact they never will be. On the other hand, some people may think that by expressing strong opposition to the protocol they maximise their chances of getting some change.

    But assume that group 3 exists, and that it includes the TUV and (most of) the DUP. Obviously there's no point in Sunak (or anyone else) reaching out to them or making concessions to them; nothing will ever be sufficient to win their support, so why give them anything at all? You're just wasting your limited political capital.

    We find ourselves in the interesting position where someone like downcow takes the view that the modifications in the WF were valuable gains, and that these were secured through the DUP tactics of boycott and bluster. (We could query whether they were in fact won by those tactics, but downcow believes they were.) AT the same time the DUP itself, and many of those aligned with it, say that those modifications are trivial or worthless - indeed, some argue that the WF is actually worse than the unmodified NIP was.

    The curious result is that downcow intends to reward the DUP with his vote for achieving something which the DUP itself regards as worthless.

    Now imagine you're Rishi Sunak, faced with this overlapping mosaic of conflicting positions which, we have some reason to think, are - ahem - not always presented by those who hold them with complete candour.

    I wouldn't really blame Sunak for throwing his hands up at the whole thing. There is no point in dealing with at least some of those he faces in the unionist camp, and he can't reliably identify who those are.

    But we've now reached a point where he doesn't need to negotiate with them. What we've learned now is that Sunak's goal - and, more generally, Westminster's goal - in addressing the Protocol is not to secure restoration of the devolved institutions in NI. He's like that, but it's not essential to him. What he wants is a functional relationship with the EU, with the US and with the broader international community so that the running sore of Brexit arguments does not e.g. impede the UK from acceding to the CPTPP, etc. And, hey, he's got that.

    The result is that, whether or not the DUP's actions (or inaction) was instrumental in securing the WF, and whether or not the WF was worth securing, those actions (or inactions) won't achieve anything more. Sunak has what he wants. The DUP can dangle the prospect of a return to Stormont, but Sunak doesn't need that, and in any event will be very sceptical that he can get it by making further changes to the WF, since the DUP appears to be in the camp that won't settle for any version of the WF. In effect, the DUP have priced themselves out of the market. They are looking to buy goods that are not for sale, and they have no useful currency with which to buy any goods anyway.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 76,934 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Jeffrey gilding the lily somewhat on the last minute -re-funding of previously funded ESF projects.

    The reality is that it is half of what was being contributed by the EU.

    Brexit relaities biting hard.

    Tough day for a lot of people.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,114 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    The UK used to pay a lot more in to the EU than the EU ever gave the UK, so no point crying over a few cents the EU used to throw back. At least the UK spends its money on things that matter, like the NHS and a military capable of sending something to UKraine, and a navy capable of detecting the Russian ships off our west coast and what they are up to. Our navy is so underfunded that no Irish ships are at sea and even if they were what good would they be at knowing what the Russians were up to below the surface.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Regions like Cornwall, identified as needing critical intervention by the EU, have seen a net loss in funding - money that hasn't seen parity since brexit. So the UK might have paid in more than it got back - the adjustment of money "saved" hasn't been paid forward to the areas previously enjoying the benefit of a shared pot.




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  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 11,063 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    What the UK spends on the NHS etc... has nothing to do with EU support and EU support is lot less locally political as it is defined on a super nation basis. We'll have to wait and see just how political funding in the UK will be come.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,114 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    Chickenfeed. In 2020 the UK made an estimated gross contribution (after the rebate) of £17.0 billion. The UK received £4.5 billion of public sector receipts from the EU, so the UK's net public sector contribution to the EU was an estimated £12.6 billion

    Where did that £12.6 billion ( not million, billion) per year go? well, some of it goes on the hundreds of highly paid language translators in Brussels whose sole job is to translate documents in to the Irish language, documents which nobody will ever read in the Irish language.

    You could not make it up.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,892 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    You'd think with all that extra money, they'd be able to increase funding in deprived areas rather than decimating it, wouldn't you?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 76,934 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Whatever about what the UK gave they cannot maintain the services that were funded by being an EU member.

    That part of the Brexit disaster is now abundantly clear to anyone with their eyes open.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,660 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    And to other EU countries who are net recipients of EU funding, like Ireland was for so many years. I'm sure some of Britain's contributions went into Irish infrastructure projects at the very least.

    Also I don't see how it's the EUs fault that Irish is the recognised language of this country.


    Also bear in mind the net 12 billion paid to the EU pales in comparison to the tens of billions squandered by the Tories over the past few years. Between the mini budget, PPE scandal, track and trace, 13 billion which has "disappeared" into the MoD and 15 billion of frivolous spending over the past decade.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 44,087 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Maybe if you spent a little time on understanding the basics of how EU funding works, you'd not need to post silly comments like your dig towards translation costs.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Kinda missing the important point here for the sake of a soapbox about Irish translators: if the net contributions were so large as to be worth comment, then why has parity not been restored? The North, Cornwall and other areas are struggling precisely because this "chickenfeed", as you call it, hasn't been matched - despite this money no longer being channelled out into the giant pot you're being deeply reductive and incorrect about. TBH calling it "chickenfeed" is glib and dismissive; it clearly matters to those that needed it.

    Cornwall in particular, was identified an especially impoverished zone, hence the funding in the first instance. Seems like the EU cared more about helping the area than the UK. IIRC 7 of the 11 poorest regions in the EU were in the UK alone.

    Post edited by pixelburp on


  • Posts: 18,046 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Has there been a breakdown done of what it is costing or will cost for the UK to do all of the shared competences of the EU like nuclear / medicines by itself? That shared pool of resources gave a lot of efficiency to that sort of thing.

    The EU employs 60,000 people which is tiny compared to a country's spend on public service workers.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,114 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    Nail on the head there. re are 2 facts which explain why so many in the UK were fed up with the EU and wanted to leave.

    (A) The UK were the second biggest net contributors to the EU. Many felt EU funds were were being squandered or sometimes spent unwisely. For example, I remember meeting an Englishman here during the celtic tiger years when everyone was building mansions and the b+b lady he usually stayed with had moved in a big new "McMansion". The B+B person who owner the new house told him she got a big EU grant towards it. I would say there was the odd bit of dodgy dealing with grants in those years in the EU. Even nowadays EU money is spent on things like 200 Irish language translators : who needs 200 people to be employed translating EU stuff in to a language nobody will ever read?

    (B) You say "7 of the 11 poorest regions in the EU were in the UK alone.". If that is the case, then a lot of British people would prefer the UK's net contribution to the EU of £12.6 billion per year to be spent and circulated around the UK, not in Brussels translating things in to Irish or little touristy businesses in Ireland, Greece or southern Italy. Mind you, the price of property is nearly as bad in Cornwall as London.

    This post is not saying the UK was right or wrong to Brexit, but I can understand how many in the UK voted to Brexit.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    This is a lot of words to basically, again, slam the fact Irish translations happen in Brussels. As if that's some silver bullet towards EU being some fundamentally flawed entity. All Without actually addressing the point being made, which is that vital funds have been taken out of areas that need them. TBH you don't seem to understand how EU contributions worked, or the logic behind them so not sure we'll find much to discuss here.

    Cornwall property prices are high because it turned into a area of holiday homes or rich retirees' dream houses, the natives priced out of affordable living; all in a region whose resident industries had already shrunk through negligence or obsolescence. Cornwall needed EU money because it was a neglected region allowed to diminish, the seasonal money of tourism propping up a provably poor region. The removal of EU funding was, like a lot of things, not reported during the referendum and came as. A shock to many orgs in Cornwall (one of the highest pro brexit vote shares, as it happens, proving turkeys do vote for Christmas)

    That's an aside and totally off topic, albeit tangential to the fact EU money Northern Irish companies and organizations needed just to function.



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