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The Kerry Babies Case

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 91,748 ✭✭✭✭JP Liz V1


    No matter what people tell you, words and ideas can change this World



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,232 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 43,413 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,009 ✭✭✭Andrea B.


    Maybe, the poster is saying it on the basis that nobody has been named / charged yet?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,610 ✭✭✭francois




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,786 ✭✭✭DownByTheGarden


    Edit :

    Was asked to delete this info.

    It will all come out anyway.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,232 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Maybe the poster is spreading the bullshit superfecundity crazed conspiracy

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 437 ✭✭TipsyMcStagge


    I assume the poster is referring to their actions in regards to Joanne's baby and not baby John.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,232 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    What? The state villified her 40 years ago and people want her villified again?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 578 ✭✭✭VillageIdiot71


    The State (in the form of the Tribunal report) clearly stated she had no connection to the Caherciveen Baby, and that the Gardaí had invented increasingly bizarre theories to account for their mistake. The Tribunal also found that the Hayes family had been intimidated into making statements, believing they would not be released from Garda custody until they confessed.

    It's just there's a context behind the mythmaking. A family, whose farm contained a related dead baby in a bag thrown in a ditch, were wrongly accused of putting an unrelated dead baby in a bag and throwing it off a cliff.

    I don't think anyone especially cares about pursuing that matter. It's just irritating to see this squalid episode being depicted as some pivotal moment in Irish history.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,232 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    The Tribunal treated her shamefully to the point she was physically sick. The State in the form of the Gardai and the Tribunal treated this woman shamefully yet here we are almost 40 years later and people want to treat her shamefully again. Disgusting.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 578 ✭✭✭VillageIdiot71


    If that’s what you want to believe, you will.

    The Tribunal report very clearly stated that the Cahiciveen baby had nothing to do with the Hayes family.

    Beyond that, the case is nothing like what happened in Granard, which does illustrate the dark side of rural Ireland in those toles.



  • Posts: 24,207 ✭✭✭✭ Kyng Prehistoric Vinegar


    Ireland was a very peculiar place those decades ago, we must remember there were still mother & baby homes as recently as the 80s, and broadly speaking society was complicit in condemning girls who became pregnant, the fathers getting away without an iota of responsibility of any of these matters. And this was more especially so in relatively more remote and rural communities where there were valleys galore of squinting windows.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 21,569 Mod ✭✭✭✭Leg End Reject


    It's just irritating to see this squalid episode being depicted as some pivotal moment in Irish history.

    It was, along with the death of 15 year old Ann Lovett and her newborn son earlier in the same year.

    Unmarried mothers were treated like conniving and immoral harlots who tempted poor innocent men. At the time many were still sent to mother and baby homes and forced to give up babies.

    There's a reason Ann left school to have her baby alone, and a reason Joanne Hayes buried her deceased son on the family farm and was used as a scapegoat, but they did force a dialogue on how teenage girls and women were treated.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,434 ✭✭✭cute geoge


    The community in Abbeydorney which is my neighbouring parish strongly supported Joanne and all the hayes family ,They collected money to fund her legal fees .The family were potrayed as being backward which is not true ,they all work in the local comunity and I know them to see .They are in fact beautiful sound honest family who are well respected .These are people who you would only love to be your neighbours and friends .This is draging up a nighmare from their past again and some of the posts on here are unreal to hear



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 21,569 Mod ✭✭✭✭Leg End Reject




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,920 ✭✭✭micar


    The journalist from TV3 said that both people were arrested at the same address and have been together since early 80's.

    I'm the assuming that they're married and likely gave grown up kids and possibly grandkids.

    If they are charged and then named once appeared in court, it will be shocking for their family and the wider community



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,052 ✭✭✭kabakuyu


    That might have been the case in backward rural communities, certainly wasnt true of larger urban areas, there was an un married mothers allowance paid since the early 80's, many ladies availed of it,not all the country was cow towing to the catholic church.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,983 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    At the time the feeling seemed to be that almost everyone just wanted these events to go away and not be spoken of again.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra,

    I'm raptured by the joy of it all.



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  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 21,569 Mod ✭✭✭✭Leg End Reject


    It wasn't isolated to backward rural communities, and there was a stigma attached to unmarried mothers regardless of how many received an allowance. It was a different time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,888 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    .


    What does unmarried mothers, community opinions, the stance of the church, pregnancy out of wedlock and all that have to do with stabbing a baby 28 times?

    The is a murder case, a terrible case of infanticide with a concerted effort to cover up the crime and not a commentary on irish societal values.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Paul on


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 21,569 Mod ✭✭✭✭Leg End Reject


    It was certainly uncomfortable to confront but these 2 tragic cases did force the country to look at how things were dealt with.

    It's easy to brush things under the carpet when babies were secretly born in homes, it's a lot harder when one dead teenage girl and 3 dead newborns are found within 4 months of each other.

    I was a child and no where near having a boyfriend, nevermind being sexually active, but my parents spoke to me after Ann's case came to light and told me to never be afraid to talk to them if I got pregnant or into any other kind of trouble, that was later repeated throughout my teenage years. I doubt my parents were unique, after all, who wants their daughter and newborn grandchild to die alone because of fear or what the neighbours might say?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,052 ✭✭✭kabakuyu


    There was a stigma in some peoples mind but not as widespread as people now make out, many unmarried mothers made the conscious decision not to marry. Fact is many couples just did'nt marry.Not all of us were following catholic doctrine at the time but nowadays its de rigeur to describe all of Ireland as a catholic hellhole.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 21,569 Mod ✭✭✭✭Leg End Reject


    I didn't mention religion or the church at all, the state was complicit too and it wasn't unique to Ireland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,983 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    UMA came in in ~1973, was quite controversial at the time by all accounts but it was Ireland's first attempt to provide some sort of alternative to incarceration and forced adoption

    There were still all sorts of negative attitudes from many in Dublin in the 80s I well remember hearing the tut-tutting. Even in the 90s some relatives were giving my sister grief for having kids and not getting married (even within a long-term relationship which endures today)

    In the early 80s in Dublin my aunt went to the parish priest because her nearly-30 daughter was living in a flat with a man she was not married to. She asked the priest was there anything he could do 🙄🙄

    I'm partial to your abracadabra,

    I'm raptured by the joy of it all.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,232 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    What?

    Are you excusing the tribunals treatment of her?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 556 ✭✭✭laoisgem


    You have no idea what your talking about! I got pregnant at 15, was a mother at 16 in 1999. I'm 40 now with an almost 24 year old an even with therapy, the stigma never leaves.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,268 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    It was appalling, done by the two SCs on the instruction of their clients.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,052 ✭✭✭kabakuyu


    All very sad and real experiences for some but not all.Forgot to add that anecdote about your aunt confirms my assertion that religious people appear to have been affected more than the people who ignored catholic doctrine even in the 80's.



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