Inconsistencies in the Irish criminal court? Any thoughts on this as a member of the public?

#1 · 06-03-2023 7:44pm #1

So last week there was a case of a homeless mentally ill old woman that was given 6 months in prison for protesting refugees staying in a local hotel.

This was issued to her despite a psychiatric evaluation being unprepared for the court to hear before passing the ruling.

Then,

https://twitter.com/courtsnewsIRL/status/1632737439583289344?s=20

It kind of makes you think, there have been cases of folk being sent to jail for not paying their TV licence.

The case a couple weeks ago of the repeat youth offender in Dublin (I think 21 or 22 yrs old) who, with an accomplice, tortured a woman over a period of hours, including pouring boiling water over her;

Who walked free that very day, no jail time. And flipped the bird to court reporters, presumably to establish some additional "street cred".

.......

And this list literally goes on for days.

Apparent clean living and upstanding people that may have made a mistake or fallen victim to a situation/circumstance, getting battered with court sentences, whilst legit criminals and societal miscreants walk free, time and again.

......

The general consensus from the public seems to be, "seeing these rulings serves as a deterrent from me putting so much as a hair out of line, cause I don't want to fall prey to criminal court or judicial incompetence". Which is very little in the way of solace.

Sugar_Rush · 06-03-2023 7:52pm

Meanwhile acting minister for justice Simon Harris is absolutely gung-ho introducing policy to "tackle and address gender based violence" which, don't get me wrong, is a noble and worthy cause.

But in terms of frequency, it happens remotely on a par with the delinquency such as in that twitter link?

Too far gone on virtue signalling, not far gone enough on practical policy affecting more prominent realistic daily issues of justice.

......

Not to mention his most recent rant in the Dail on how weekend drug users were fueling criminal enterprise.

A hard working dude or gal wants to chill at the weekend and they're somehow indirectly responsible for gangland culture?

Whilst north Dublin streets are lined with hardcore drug users, he goes for the low hanging fruit of gainfully employed occasional recreational users?

Sugar_Rush · 06-03-2023 8:01pm

Not to mention granting 750 large to the NGO Ruhamma recently, spin-off of Magdalene Laundries and all their virtue signalling hypocrisy, whilst perpetrating the unspeakable atrocities like what came to light in Tuam.

Some very evident practicalities of justice and policy that those heads of government seriously seem to remain willfully oblivious to, whilst indulging in their own ludicrous and spineless ideals.

buried · 06-03-2023 8:33pm

Don't worry, somebody will be along here in the morning to heap all the blame for the inconsistencies upon the ordinary decent taxpaying citizen.

JohnnyFortune · 07-03-2023 11:06am

We need new bigger prisons in Dublin, the Midlands and the South of Ireland. We also need automatic sentences for certain crimes, with no sentencing input from the judiciary, get rid of concurrent sentencing. Take back the streets.

I'd also advocate for a return of some form of medical incarceration for those unable to deal with life for treatment and their own/the publics safety.

Jim2007 · 07-03-2023 11:33am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120322341#Comment_120322341

Rather than worrying maybe you should take the time to understand how the country is governed... The legislature makes the laws not the judiciary. You want different laws talk to the people you elect rather than sitting behind a keyboard. Of course that required actual work, so most people/taxpayers/voters could not be bothered. If you want change you have to actually work at it, not just type on the keyboard.

ohnonotgmail · 07-03-2023 11:37am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058287122/inconsistencies-in-the-irish-criminal-court-any-thoughts-on-this-as-a-member-of-the-public

So last week there was a case of a homeless mentally ill old woman that was given 6 months in prison for protesting refugees staying in a local hotel.

Do you have a link to this case?

Smee_Again · 07-03-2023 11:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120324233#Comment_120324233

I presume they're talking about this woman.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/courtandcrime/arid-41084590.html

ohnonotgmail · 07-03-2023 11:49am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120324258#Comment_120324258

there is always a bit more than they say. this wasn't a one-off. she has a history of it. and she was already under probation supervision.

buried · 07-03-2023 12:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120324215#Comment_120324215

Where did I say I was worried?

Thanks for popping in this morning and proving my prediction anyways!

Hotblack Desiato · 07-03-2023 12:33pm

and 16 weeks is not 6 months as claimed in the OP 🙄 .. and half of that 16 weeks was suspended.

Sugar_Rush · 07-03-2023 12:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120324283#Comment_120324283

She was homeless, mentally ill, and jailed for cat calling - doing what thousands of natives are doing.

The "dudes" in the opening link have a combined almost 80 convictions, committed an additional heinous crime - no jail.

BattleCorp · 07-03-2023 12:51pm

Nobody in the history of the State has ever been jailed for not having a TV licence.

What happens is that people get fined for not having a TV licence. It's when they don't pay that fine, the option is there to jail them. Same with any fine imposed by the courts. Don't pay and if the authorities are bothered, they can have you jailed for non-payment.

Regarding Buttimer getting jailed, I did think it was a bit much jailing her for shouting about the refugees in the hotel even though she has previous. People do much worse and walk free.

ohnonotgmail · 07-03-2023 12:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120324482#Comment_120324482

and with credit for time already served. probably out already.

Boggles · 08-03-2023 3:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120324559#Comment_120324559

She is being used by some absolute feral scum.

The judge jailed her to get her off the street and away from them.

The family are at their wits end.

I imagine the thread has been started to focus on her and their "cause" and has feck all to do with anyone's concerns about the criminal justice system.

Sugar_Rush · 08-03-2023 8:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120330514#Comment_120330514

Your screen name is appropriate.

Sugar_Rush · 09-03-2023 12:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120334017#Comment_120334017

they are political and are protecting certain people from punishments for their crimes as they are on "the right side of history".

Can you go into further detail on this part?

mikethecop · 09-03-2023 1:41pm

Some one else already covered the tv license thing,

As for the two cases reverenced both should be locked up until they are no longer a threat to other people , which at the moment they most surely are

As a nation we are very badly served by poulet politicos of all party, wildly out of touch judges and judiciary and desperately demoralized and under supported police.

I mean how some one though it was morally acceptable to present this defense for sexual assault on a child was a valid strategy and then to have a (awful )judge give it consideration .

https://twitter.com/courtsnewsIRL

is this next ?

Bacha bazi - Wikipedia

09-03-2023 2:03pm

Any Irish man with experience of family court matters in Ireland is FULLY aware of the inconsistencies in the Irish courts, don't worry about it.

walterking · 09-03-2023 2:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120324482#Comment_120324482

Funny how when a certain type of person tries to draw attention to something that they exaggerate and also leave pertinent information out.

So the op screams 6 months (she should have got a lot more for her continued aggression an all sorts of subjects - covid was her pet hate last year) and he reality is 6 weeks in prison after good behaviour redeuction.

Frankly, her threats and behaviour deserved 12 months and no suspension

Overheal · 10-03-2023 8:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120324215#Comment_120324215

Boils down to this.

In the US I recently recall the confirmation hearing for Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson. There were many senators who wildly criticized her sentences she imposed on several child pornography and sex trafficking cases she had previously adjudged in the lower courts, the arguments all boiled down to 'how dare you let them off without the death penalty after chopping off their balls etc' - Jackson and other senators pointed out that those senators admonishing these sentences need look no farther than the criminal sentencing guidelines the Congress passed for all such cases, all of which were followed to the letter by Jackson in each case. In the case of some senators criticizing her, they themselves had written and voted for those standing guidelines, and as was pointed out at the time it is the role of the Legislature in a democratic 3 branch government to stipulate criminal statutes and sentencing guidelines, and if they don't like the current jurisprudence, the only remedy is pass new sentencing laws.

Noteworthy however the US doesn't have the same viewpoint of a prison crisis, being a for profit industry cell locations are typically available, such is not the case in Ireland. Not enough cells to throw away the key of.

12-03-2023 6:06pm

The absence of law reform in this State destroys so, so many lives. Every day people suffer because of the inhumanity of the delays, and the absence of penalties on all people who prolong cases and judgments because they have a vested interest in it.

Here's the OECD's recent take on the extraordinary delays and poor value which the Irish State guarantees it will deliver to all citizens: 'Irish court users’ experience ‘poor, costly and lengthy’, says OECD: 'Brace of significant reports indicate Republic may require up to 108 additional judges'.

https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-law/courts/2023/02/25/irish-court-users-experience-poor-costly-and-lengthy-says-oecd/

For anybody who thinks providing an efficient, cost-effective legal system is an act of charity by the State, I'd like to point out that every person who pays legal fees pays 23% VAT/tax to this State to, supposedly, provide a legal system which will facilitate us. That means if, for instance, your legal fees to divorce are €40,000, you will have to pay the Irish State €9,200 in VAT/tax on top of that as the fee to provide you with a court system which has expert and fair judges. We do not, of course, have a system of judges expert in specifical types of law as, say, France has. Rather, we have judges who are just appointed to whatevver area of law where a vacancy emerges.

The State, as the monopoly provider of the Irish legal system, is simply taking our money and giving us a crap service in return with no incentive to improve. Furthermore, the most powerful lobby group by some distance in the State, the legal industry, gets their bread and butter fees out of the continuation of these delays. The inhumanity of the State in refusing to put time limits on everything - every single thing! - and refusing to open up all the courts to a system of qualified professional legal and human rights researchers (a sort of ESRI entirely for the legal system, or at least an entire section of the ESRI which collates statistics on judgments, legal practice, waiting times, consistency in judgments, gender inequality in the family courts, and so much else is easily something which the ECHR needs to make a ruling on. Right now, homes across this State are tense and children suffer hugely because the State allows cases to continue for weeks, months and years longer than they need to. Putting strict time limits, and punishing the many people who wilfully delay would be a real signal of law reform.

Let the Law Society of Ireland and Bar Council of Ireland object because solicitors and barristers can no longer drag out cases for years. The Minister for Justice, Helen McEntee/Simon Harris is supposed to be responsible to the wider public, not beholden to the legal lobby.

Sugar_Rush · 17-03-2023 7:40pm

https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2023/0317/1363791-stefan-bornac-court/

Judge Nolan presides again.

This seems like a clear cut case of attempted murder.

19 year old Romanian man viciously assaults a college student in an unprovoked attack.

Gets three and a half years.

Three and a half years?

Victim was in a coma for three weeks and well as losing his sense of smell and taste due to neural damage.

Hotblack Desiato · 18-03-2023 12:54pm

Why the hell are they calling it a "one punch attack" ?

Bornac, a passenger in the car, got out and walked over to Mr Oliver, punching him with a right-hand swing to the temple with considerable force, the court heard. Bornac then began punching Mr Lightly several times, knocking him to the ground and then kicking him in the head.

This dirtbag would never see daylight again if it was up to me.

Sugar_Rush · 18-03-2023 1:14pm

Just saw that was reported again via the Examiner:

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/courtandcrime/arid-41095945.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Nolans problem is he keeps allowing those feral little degenerate scum off the hook, whilst handing down ridiculous sentences to gainfully employed hard working contributing members, who may have slipped up.

McEntee instated a means to lodge complaints against judicial outcomes, a petition against Nolan accrued 50,000 signatures...... and still nothing?

The department of justice simply ignored it?

Sugar_Rush · 18-03-2023 1:19pm

Another Nolan ruling recently went down where one of the "Dub Life" mob stabbed a man in the face.

Let me say that again.

Stabbed a man in the face.

And after being apprehended and "prosecuted", walked free that same day.

It occurred cause the offender was apparently woman-bashing his girlfriend in public, a good Samaritan tried to pacify the situation and both the assailant and woman being bashed turned on the good Samaritan.

......

Got to wonder, in Ireland is there literally a culture of sympathy/pity for that degenerate element?

Witcher · 18-03-2023 1:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372456#Comment_120372456

'And after being apprehended and "prosecuted", walked free that same day.'

He didn't walk free the same day.

Brussels Sprout · 18-03-2023 2:25pm

Got to wonder, in Ireland is there literally a culture of sympathy/pity for that degenerate element?

It seems like a lot of these inexplicable decisions are from a single judge but you are extrapolating that to the entire country.

On that basis, the hypothesis is rejected.

Hotblack Desiato · 18-03-2023 7:01pm

We really need to build a new prison. Thornton Hall was intended as a replacement for Mountjoy, it should be built not as a replacement but as an additional prison.

Then we have a rule for that prison - you enter in a van, you leave in a hearse. Nobody gets out alive.

Plenty of career criminals in this country who have dozens or hundreds of convictions and do not deserve to ever see the light of day again.

This would cost a lot of money but be worth every cent. The revolving door legal system costs us a fortune anyway.

We are far too soft on crime in this country.

Suckler · 18-03-2023 7:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120373695#Comment_120373695

Please think of the "Free legal aid brigade" of solicitors who rely on the revolving door clients. What will become of them if this constant stream of return business were to dry up?

Hotblack Desiato · 18-03-2023 10:19pm

Won't somebody think of the UCD 1000

Inconsistencies in the Irish criminal court? Any thoughts on this as a member of the public?

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