Orange is the new Burke

Annasopra · 17-03-2023 09:21AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120368201#Comment_120368201

He will have to pay something. If/when he starts getting dole they can take a portion of that.

Fotish · 17-03-2023 09:54AM

looks like the school were the ones that wanted the they/them pronouns used, not the family of the student involved.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/parent-of-transgender-student-in-enoch-burke-row-expresses-safety-concern-for-their-family-42390736.html

17-03-2023 09:58AM

It appears that Wilson’s weren’t exactly truthful in all this.

A parent of the child has said they at no stage did the parents/student request that the student be addressed as “they”, and didn’t have a problem with Burke, in fact the parents/student didn’t even know that they were referenced in the disciplinary action nor court action. The meeting also involved discussions with the form head and another teacher, not the Principal as claimed, who only attended briefly. The court clarification appears to have been triggered by the parent’s email outlining the inaccuracies of what WHS had claimed.

And just in case any muppets start posting that this is a post in support of EB, it isn’t, it relates to an updated report of events, based on what the parent is saying happened, it does not excuse his subsequent appalling behaviour.

https://archive.ph/sDujM

VinLieger · 17-03-2023 10:06AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120368744#Comment_120368744

Its entirely possible the child lied to the parents about all of this. Maybe the parents reaction might have been negative as well?

17-03-2023 10:14AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120368758#Comment_120368758

Anything is possible, but the parent seems quite clear that his/her recollection differs from WHS.

”The parent also said their child had never requested they be called by the “they/them pronoun”.”

Peregrinus · 17-03-2023 10:24AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120368783#Comment_120368783

It's not unusual for the recollections of different people who attended the same meeting to be different — in fact it's pretty common. That doesn't mean that one of them is being "less than honest".

And the point about the parents of the student concerned "not having a problem with Burke" is not really relevant. The court proceedings and associated contempt order arise because the school has a problem with Burke and his behaviour Burke, I think, would say that his problem is first and foremost with the school and the instructions they gave him.

It's desparately unfortunate for the student and their family that they have been caught up on this, and quite possibly — I'm not in a position to say — the school could have done more to keep them informed and, so far as possible, protect them. But none of that is (as you point out) really relevant to the dispute between the school and Burke.

17-03-2023 10:29AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120368796#Comment_120368796

I do appreciate that, without an actual recording there can be two sides and two contrasting recollections to any conversation. But the parent obviously felt strongly enough to contact the school and state that their recollection differs from the school’s and you would have to say, stating the child “never requested” is emphatic and unambiguous.

GarfieldandPookyBear · 17-03-2023 10:30AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120368737#Comment_120368737

I can’t read the whole article, if they didn’t want to be called they, then what? He, she, it? Just a name change? 😳

17-03-2023 10:39AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120368812#Comment_120368812

https://archive.ph/sDujM

ohnonotgmail · 17-03-2023 10:42AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120368810#Comment_120368810

It is entirely possible that the child never requested to be called they/them in front of the parents but did so separately.

17-03-2023 10:43AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120368851#Comment_120368851

Anything is possible.

Annasopra · 17-03-2023 10:48AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120368810#Comment_120368810

Yeah but it has been clarified

Mr Milling, who became principal last November, said: “The student’s parent’s email could be interpreted as a suggestion the change in pronouns was a decision by the school and the school alone.

“However, I understand from my enquiries of the two members of staff who were at the meeting that is not the case.

“The student was clear that they did not want to use their previous gender-specific pronouns and all, including the parent, agreed that ‘they/them’ would be used going forward in the school.”

looksee · 17-03-2023 10:53AM

It doesn't say the student/family didn't want to be called 'they', just that they did not request it. The article demonstrates how the whole situation for the student has been created by Burke's behaviour.

It is likely that this young person has enough to think about trying to come to terms with what their sexuality/gender may be and how it will affect their life, having it splashed all over the media by Burke's self-absorbed tantrums is not helpful. The student is at an age where they will not really see that it is not about them, they probably feel as though they are going around with a huge spotlight on them. Even if a few friends and family know who they are, the student concerned has not been identified and hopefully that situation will continue.

We don't know exactly where the truth lies of what went on in the meeting, and really it does not matter. The entire responsibility for all the subsequent events is down to Burke's decision to engage in histrionics over a school ruling rather than acting professionally.

17-03-2023 10:56AM

Meh, he said/she said, doesn't really matter in the context of Enochs behaviour

Jim_Hodge · 17-03-2023 10:59AM

It's all immaterial. It's now nothing to do with they or them. It's Enoch's way of handling his disapproval of the school's decisions. It's his contempt of court and misconduct that have him where he now is.

17-03-2023 11:07AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120368890#Comment_120368890

There is no indication that the parents are in any way uncomfortable with their child’s gender, that there is any disagreement between them about gender, or that they are back-pedalling.

Morris Garren · 17-03-2023 11:08AM

The school did not 'change' the child's pronouns. There can be a lot of 'who-said-what-when-to-who' with teenagers and its not uncommon for people to have slightly differing memories of the same conversations. If anything, WHS are going a long way towards clarifying and being certain that they are doing everything they can to ensure integrity and dignity. Thankfully they are not, nor any teaching union, judge nor religious leader, accepting Enoch's position and behaviour because it's barking mad. No amount of hazy memories or debates about meetings will change that.

GarfieldandPookyBear · 17-03-2023 11:19AM

From the way I read it, the email is from one parent and not both and only one parent attended the meeting in question so it’s also possible that the parents are not being honest with each other? We won’t be privy to those details obviously but if Enoch had just followed the orders and let the courts deal with it, he wouldn’t be in this position. He was still being paid on suspension so he wasn’t losing out.

It’s just not adding up. If your child just wanted to change their name, would all these meetings be necessary? No, you change it legally and inform the school. Someone in this has been left out of the loop.

17-03-2023 11:26AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120368919#Comment_120368919

In families where there are non-binary / trans children, it can be the case that one parent is accepting and supportive, and the other, not. It happens. I'm friends with a family who went through this.

The reports that now only one parent was present at the meeting, not both, and this email makes me think its a possibility that the parents could be at odds with each other over their child's choices.

Now claiming that the use of "they/them" pronouns was never requested, and the school took it upon themselves to do that, does not ring true to me.

But as usual, you are free to differ, as I'm sure you will.

17-03-2023 11:30AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120368982#Comment_120368982

Only once in all our kids school years did both my wife and I attend the same meeting/ parents-teacher day, we both work, so only one took time off to attend.

You are making up your own narrative now to insinuate that both parents may not be supportive of their child.

Jim_Hodge · 17-03-2023 11:32AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120368997#Comment_120368997

Ah now, this meeting was more than an annual parent/teacher meeting.

17-03-2023 11:35AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120369005#Comment_120369005

Which is why post includes the word “meeting” as well as the parent-teachers. Doesn’t change the fact that if both parents work, both may not be able to attend. So reading anything into the fact that only one attended, or insinuating that it is an indication of strife, seems odd.

nothing · 17-03-2023 12:16PM

The parent who emailed didn't know it was their child involved, I would take that to mean that they hadn't attended the meeting and that they hadn't been kept up to date by the child or other parent. It certainly implies they are not as supportive as the parent who attended the meeting, and that they may be struggling with the situation.

GarfieldandPookyBear · 17-03-2023 12:17PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120369014#Comment_120369014

It’s not really odd to be fair. If it was just a name change as this parent is suggesting, why all the meetings? Also, a school would not take it upon themselves to decide the child is to be referred to as “they/them”. That’s a huge step and I would hope that it wouldn’t be done without at least one parent in agreement. The legal implications would be huge otherwise. It’s just not adding up!

archermoo · 17-03-2023 12:19PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120368956#Comment_120368956

Just for clarification, there isn't any "legal name change" in Ireland. You can change your name by just deciding to do so, and asking others to start using the new name. You can execute a deed poll to change your name if you want, which does make some things easier, but is a process in itself. If they are under 14 one of the parents would have to execute the deed poll with the consent of the other. If they are 14-17 they could execute the deed poll themselves, but it would have to be done with the consent of both parents. But a deed poll isn't required to "legally" change your name.

17-03-2023 12:25PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120369171#Comment_120369171

Again, you are making your own narrative. The parent was clear about why the meeting was scheduled. If it was scheduled for the topic you claim it was, you would have to ask why the Principal didn’t make time for the student/parent at the meeting. Why you have now turned your focus on the parents and insinuations related to non support and marital strife is beyond comprehension.

”However, the parent said in the email to Mr Milling they wished to be clear that the purpose of the meeting was to “re-engage [their child] back to school”. The parent also said that while the child had requested to go by a new name, “the they/them pronoun came from Wilson’s” and there was no principal or deputy principal at the meeting.”

17-03-2023 12:45PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120369195#Comment_120369195

Dav010, seeing as such simple points are "beyond your comprehension", I'm not going to waste any more of my time with you on this, other than to say -

What I said - highlighted in bold - was that a difference between the parents over the child was a possibility. I never stated it was a fact. Nor did I make any comment referring to "marital strife" between the parents at all. You made that bit up.

Now, this so-called "new information" may all ring true to you - because it conveniently suits your narrative - but it doesn't make sense, and it doesn't ring true to me.

At all.

Tork · 17-03-2023 12:48PM

Does it matter who requested what? It's utterly irrelevant to the core of this case. Enoch Burke didn't agree with a request from his employer. It doesn't matter who said what in the run-up to the request. He disagreed with what was being asked of him, which he's within his rights to do. But instead of pursuing his grievance through the relevant channels, he chose to make his thoughts known to all and sundry in a very public way. I've read the court document which describes his outburst at the church ceremony and how he confronted his principal. If he didn't realise there and then that he'd blown up his career, he would've done once they suspended him and told him there'd be a disciplinary hearing. He was trying to stop it going ahead prior to the infamous "Where's John Rogers" incident, which suggests he knew his goose was cooked.

GarfieldandPookyBear · 17-03-2023 01:18PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120369195#Comment_120369195

Are there also two affidavits from the two staff members who attended the meeting claiming that it was discussed? If that’s the case then it isn’t adding up. We’ll probably never know the full details as the child and their identity needs to be protected.

It doesn’t however change the fact that Enoch’s behaviour got him to where he is now and if he had followed proper procedures, discussions would have clarified any issues or non issues. He had another chance after to get an injunction against the school carrying on with their disciplinary hearing but again he wouldn’t follow the court order and the court refused his request.

It's just one big mess unfortunately.

archermoo · 17-03-2023 02:26PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120369267#Comment_120369267

No, it doesn't. It is all just a distraction. An attempt to pretend that Burke isn't responsible for his own situation. That he is somehow making a "principled" stand. Rather than just being the reprobate that he is.

It honestly doesn't matter what he disagreed with the school about. Because him disagreeing with them isn't the issue. He didn't get fired over disagreeing with them. He got fired because of the way he handled that disagreement. It wouldn't matter if the school had issued a policy change disallowing staff from eating ham sandwiches on campus and he disagreed with that. If he had acted in the same way he would've been just as wrong, and we would've ended up exactly where we are.

But here's the thing: From the behavior of the Burke family based on the different legal entanglements they've had, I'm pretty sure that if the disagreement he had with the school was one that they thought they could've won in court they would've handled it differently. The few court cases that they've won they behaved themselves, hired legal representation, and let THEM argue the case. With this one they knew they would never win, so they've just been getting as much publicity as they can out of it.

Orange is the new Burke

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