Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Downlinz · 14-03-2023 2:45am

Lets be honest if it was a world cup final tomorrow is there anyone on the planet who would rather Ross Molony in the squad over Jean Kleyn?

cuttingtimber22 · 14-03-2023 6:25am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120356079#Comment_120356079

Ross presumably?

Former Former Former · 14-03-2023 7:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120356079#Comment_120356079

Andy Farrell and Paul O'Connell apparently

Podge_irl · 14-03-2023 9:01am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120355800#Comment_120355800

Some of it is just the game moving on, but ultimately with only one or two exceptions none of the forwards from the 2000s would be close to this Irish team as their ball handling abilities were just far too poor - and this was something that to be honest was also notable at the time.

Ben Bailey · 14-03-2023 9:11am

BBC had 'Ireland Rugby Number 10' on last night. Very interesting & available on Sky.com or BBC Player

AdamD · 14-03-2023 10:07am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120353902#Comment_120353902

It was me and I think I caveated it by saying unless we had a heap of injuries, which we do? Molony may not even be in the 23 anyway.

We're missing Henderson, Beirne, McCarthy already and he'll still be behind Ryan, Baird and Treadwell..

14-03-2023 10:15am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120353902#Comment_120353902

I don't think it's so much Leinster as it is the style of play that Leinster deploy and the way that they train that has margin calls going there way (if that is the case). In the Klyne / Molony debate it goes beyond on field performances also as the role either would play would be more prominent in training than on the match day.

I've been singing Klyne's praises not just this season but last season also. He's in excellent form and it wouldn't have been a surprise if he had gotten a call up. I still think the rule of three is a thing and the IRFU want to limit the number of internationally qualified players in the match day 23. Mostly though I think Molony is probably there because he's more familiar with the setup and more adaptable to the way the team train due to being coached by Lancaster.

Interested Observer · 14-03-2023 11:12am

What I'd hope for for the weekend:

Porter, Sheehan, Furlong, Ryan, Baird, POM, VdF, Doris, JGP, Sexton, Lowe, Aki, Henshaw, Hansen, Keenan

Even with the chaos and injuries from the weekend that is a formidable team and is a match for anyone really at the moment. I don't really think there's any chance of complacency within the camp, so I think it's fair to be confident.

aloooof · 14-03-2023 11:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120356459#Comment_120356459

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120356433#Comment_120356433

The discussion was about marginal calls further down the depth chart, so injuries would obviously be a factor with that (and I don't think there were any such caveats?). It seems like you satisfied your own criteria, but it still hasn't changed your mind?

I also don't think Molony will be in the 23, but I don't think that was the point being made either.

@[Deleted User]

I don't think it's so much Leinster as it is the style of play that Leinster deploy and the way that they train that has margin calls going there way (if that is the case).

Mostly though I think Molony is probably there because he's more familiar with the setup and more adaptable to the way the team train due to being coached by Lancaster.

I'd agree entirely with that, it's pretty much exactly what I was trying to get at the last time round.

In any case, probably just best for me to leave it there.

Former Former Former · 14-03-2023 12:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120356779#Comment_120356779

The discussion was about marginal calls further down the depth chart, so injuries would obviously be a factor with that (and I don't think there were any such caveats?). It seems like you satisfied your own criteria, but it still hasn't changed your mind?

Have you changed your mind?

The whole thing blew up with Penny selected over Hodnett, and it's fair to say people were not happy. Leinster bias, Lancaster and private schools tipped the balance in a "marginal call". However, it later transpired that it wasn't a marginal call. In fact, it wasn't even a call of Penny vs Hodnett at all, because it was Timoney who was called up when Penny got injured. And correct me here, but I don't remember a single post decrying Timoney's selection over Hodnett.

So, was Hodnett's exclusion fair enough after all?

Molony is there because he's been in the Ireland squad multiple times before. Not the Leinster squad, the Ireland squad. And he's a very decent player. Not a test level player, but he's what, seventh/eighth choice?

14-03-2023 12:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120356864#Comment_120356864

I don't think Molony is a test level player either but Kleyn is closer to one in my mind and is completely in the wilderness.

I don't think he has great hands but if we're replacing Henderson I'd have thought a player like Kleyn would be more like for like than other options.

Former Former Former · 14-03-2023 1:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120356925#Comment_120356925

But Molony isn't replacing Henderson - Baird is replacing Henderson.

Molony is there exclusively if someone goes down in training or in the warm-up.

Whoever got the call-up would have - at an absolute maximum - two proper training sessions to learn the calls, defensive sets, etc before potentially being pitched into a game. It would be absolute madness to bring Kleyn in for that.

14-03-2023 1:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120357177#Comment_120357177

Baird is replacing Henderson because he's the next best second row but he was initially listed as a backrow. Both Henderson and Baird (and Beirne for that matter) have fulfilled that 5.5 role within the team but Henderson's skillset has shifted the last few years, he's very much more set piece oriented these days, you don't see him in the wider channels like you do with Baird and Beirne and you don't see him getting put into space for a line break.

I often and probably wrongly view squad replacements where possible as a like for like switch for the missing player and I think Kleyn would bring the same kind of physicality to our back 5 as Henderson does. Obviously with time constraints you want the familiar player - as I alluded to above, but Kleyn having been absent from the squad during Farrells tenure is a little bit surprising, he's had two top drawer seasons back to back.

At the same time - would he be starting for Munster if Snyman had managed to stay fit? Probably not.

AbusesToilets · 14-03-2023 2:04pm

Kleyn suffers for being too old school of a lock. Doesn't have the ball skills of the newer generation.

14-03-2023 2:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120357296#Comment_120357296

He's 1 year older than Molony. I would agree however that under Van Grann the basics deteriorated across the Munster squad generally.

Quin_Dub · 14-03-2023 2:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120357371#Comment_120357371

Realistically , Molony is there so that the squad have two full lineouts/scrums for training , he's not in realistic contention to start or even make the bench.

A 5 day turnaround means that his previous exposure to the squad is a key asset - They don't need to waste any additional time familiarizing him with calls etc.

AdamD · 14-03-2023 3:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120357371#Comment_120357371

Its style rather than age, Molony has the best hands of any Leinster second row. Bit undersized though

aloooof · 14-03-2023 3:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120356864#Comment_120356864

On form, I'd have Hodnett over Timoney too, but form isn't the only criteria used for selection (nor should it be). Which was kinda the whole point.

(In any case, I think I'm just going to leave it at that, before it all kicks off again).

leakyboots · 14-03-2023 4:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120357296#Comment_120357296

If you said that 2 seasons ago I'd have agreed (the amount of spilled ball was similar to Doris at the time) but Kleyn's ball skilled have improved massively, this year in particular. (Still probably not at Molony's level mind in that regard though). That said, I don't think those skills would be poor enough to warrant Molony being ahead of him for selection for that but as people have said, Molony isn't a realistic contender for a matchday 23 so all this is a bit moot.

There's a good shout that Kleyn is Munster's POTY so far, certainly a candidate.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120357371#Comment_120357371

100%

Podge_irl · 14-03-2023 5:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120357408#Comment_120357408

Sure, until another lock or two go down in training and then he's in the 23 cause he's the one already in the squad. There is meaning to squad call ups even if the player is not currently close to the 23.

gameoverdude · 14-03-2023 5:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120357770#Comment_120357770

Look at you being soooo aloof.

Ardillaun · 14-03-2023 8:09pm

So what can England target? I always worry about the first scrum against England or RSA and there’s been a fair bit of change there. Furlong looked like he’s getting back to his best. How much boring in will Genge be allowed? We had a few dodgy defensive moments out wide against Italy and France, and Ringrose’s absence won’t help. If I were Watson (presuming he plays), I’d be channeling my inner Stockdale and practising chip kicks.

14-03-2023 8:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120358961#Comment_120358961

It’s the breakdown - any scenario where England could manufacture a win against us this weekend would be one where Jack Willis (assuming he keeps his shirt) gets MotM and Peyper allows a messy free for all at the breakdown.

We have a great defensive solidity to us at the moment, and we’ve looked potent in attack. Only hope of containing us is slowing our ruck speed and making a mess of our ball. Every team has attempted this though and few have succeeded.

Ardillaun · 14-03-2023 9:05pm

If I were paying Sir Clive for his wisdom, I’d be looking for my money back. Brilliant, Mr. Woodward, we didn’t realize we forgot to run fast last week. Will remedy problem PDQ.

https://www.ruck.co.uk/sir-clive-woodward-two-drastic-changes-england-must-make-for-ireland-clash/

Water John · 14-03-2023 9:36pm

So much of rugby is mindset. Scotland went in at half time unhappy with the number of points they had scored. Ireland went in laughing at the trials, with key personnel losses, being thrown a them.

Former Former Former · 14-03-2023 9:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120359177#Comment_120359177

He says England need to improve their fitness, what's wrong with that?

All_in_Flynn · 14-03-2023 9:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120358974#Comment_120358974

I think England are going to be extremely aggressive on Saturday. They were embarrassed physically last week and you can already sense from the way they are talking that they are going to get into us. In Steward, they have a route into the game and to gain territory. I'm still amazed at the game they tried to play vs France.

That all being said, as long as we get parity at set piece, I think we will win but this won't be a blow out in my opinion.

UAEguy2020 · 14-03-2023 10:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120359383#Comment_120359383

They’ll need to have ALOT more than simply “being aggressive” if they want a chance to be competitive on Saturday. They need a better breakdown, better attack, better defense. I highly doubt against a team of Irelands quality in Dublin that England can bridge a gap this big and issues like I mentioned by simply being “more aggressive”. That’s up there with Wales will be competitive against Ireland because of Gatland level of clutching at straws.

To put in perspective, France came to Dublin and played well yet still got outplayed and lost by 13…, Scotland who beat England played an Irish side without a hooker at home and still lost by 15 points. I don’t know how England ,who looked mediocre at best even before the France defeat, are meant to come in that range just by simply being “more aggressive”, yes it will help if they improve one aspect but that’s hardly going to be enough to bridge gap between the sides when they are so deficient in other areas.

Podge_irl · 14-03-2023 10:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120359324#Comment_120359324

Can't do much about that in a week though

AbusesToilets · 14-03-2023 10:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120358961#Comment_120358961

Genge being allowed bore in at will. Itoje being able to disrupt our rucks. Win penalties, kick for the corner and maul over. That's about it. I'm definitely concerned that Peyper is reffing. It's key that he favors our style of cheating over Englands.

I was concerned with our inaccuracy on Sun. There were a good few times when a support runner overran or messed up the timing, in a way that's not been seen previously. Hope we iron that out.

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Comments