Time for a zero refugee policy? - Read OP for mod warnings - updated 11/5/24

NeutralHandle · 28-01-2023 11:03am

Leave

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120168954#Comment_120168954

Leave the nation to go where?

Conditions are better here than most places.

Hamachi · 28-01-2023 11:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120168914#Comment_120168914

On the aging population angle, it is true that the Irish population pyramid is aging. However, this isn't nearly as acute an issue, as it is in East Asia (Japan, China, Korea, Taiwan, Singapore) or specific countries in Eastern and Southern Europe.

The Irish fertility rate was very close to replacement level, generally acknowledged as 2.05 for a highly developed economy, from 2000 through 2016/2017. However, it did drop to 1.7/1.8 from 2017 through 2019, hitting a nadir of 1.6 in 2020, during the first and second waves of Covid. The good news is that for the first two QRs of 2022, the fertility rate re-bounded by 16%, to the point that it's almost touching 1.9. Really not far from replacement rate at all.

In fact, the Irish population grows naturally (births - deaths) by ~30K annually. Our population pyramid is also relatively robust, with 22% of the population < 14 years old and 33% < 25 years old. With the right mix of family-friendly policies, there is no reason why sustainable, replacement-level fertility cannot be achieved in Ireland. Our fertility rate has proven remarkably robust, despite the appalling policies of successive governments.

My wife is also a teacher and has taught in an immigrant-dominated school in West Dublin. I'm afraid she does not share your views on immigrant students from particular backgrounds. However, that's a discussion for another day..

TomTomTim · 28-01-2023 11:15am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120168973#Comment_120168973

Are you serious? You clearly don't know how many young people are leaving Ireland at the minute. In my own family anyway, at least half of my younger cousins have left the nation in the last few months. How in the world can our conditions be good, when one of the most important things, renting/buying, is turning into a luxury and not a norm. Nothing else matters when you can't even get near to one of the most basic necessities.

Hamachi · 28-01-2023 11:15am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120168912#Comment_120168912

True, but those who wash up on our shores, lodging spurious asylum claims are culpable. A message needs to be sent far-and-wide, that Ireland is not a welcoming place for those who intend to subvert the asylum process.

History will judge Roderick O'Gorman and his infamous 'come hither' tweets extremely harshly. A correction is inevitable as more pragmatism enters the discourse around asylum seeking.

28-01-2023 11:15am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120168914#Comment_120168914

Are you serious!?

In my school and town, we have nothing but social and behavioural issues from immigrant children who have arrived here in the last 10 years. My own daughter was subjected to severe bullying by a group of girls whose families arrived here in the last 10 years, who have not worked a day in their lives here and most of them have been handed A rated social houses. It makes me sick. This town was always a respectful place with families who worked hard with great community spirit. It is so sad what it happening here.

I was in the playground in the summer enjoying watching my children play and one of the new feral teenage gangs came in and started to try to damage the play things. I was intimidated and left.

That's not to say that there are not New Irish families who are a great asset to the town but unfortunately, they are in the minority.

Mad_maxx · 28-01-2023 11:24am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120168373#Comment_120168373

Pure unadulterated dogma

Annasopra · 28-01-2023 11:30am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120169006#Comment_120169006

We are getting somewhere that you admit it is true.

TomTomTim · 28-01-2023 11:30am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120169032#Comment_120169032

I'd really love to know how modern Ireland was built by Poles & Turks

Hamachi · 28-01-2023 11:35am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120169051#Comment_120169051

Agreed. It's great to see you acknowledge that a significant % of asylum claims are spurious. Could this finally be a damascene moment?

Mad_maxx · 28-01-2023 11:43am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120168946#Comment_120168946

Progressives feel uncomfortable at suggestions that we encourage Irish people to have larger families ( makes them get a Victor Orban vibe) yet enthusiastically support increasing the population through immigration from non western nations

I don’t even see the point of how Irish people who went to America etc and didn’t receive welfare supports as being terribly relevant, nor do I think we have any responsibility to take in people from Nigeria etc just because “ the Irish went everywhere “

im more focused on why no one is asking why the current course is inherently assumed to be the correct one and by correct I mean to the long term benefit of the country, a countries culture is a precious unique thing , importing huge amounts of people from altogether different cultures has to change a host country, it’s foolish to expect folks from far flung lands to not change the country, they are shaped by their own unique cultural background so can’t be expected to be “ new Irish “

no conversation has been had at all about whether reshaping the country radically is what’s desired or in the interests of the people long term, that in of itself is extremely unhealthy and potentially dangerous

Luxembourgo · 28-01-2023 11:49am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120169091#Comment_120169091

Totally agree. No more so in given Croke Park over for Eid. A festival for a sexist backwards religion in our national stadium is proclaimed as progressive and a sign of how great we are.

And yes I am aware Catholicism isn't great

NeutralHandle · 28-01-2023 11:49am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120169002#Comment_120169002

Where are they going? Rents are crazy alright, but the cost of living crisis isn't specifically an Irish thing.

TomTomTim · 28-01-2023 11:54am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120169113#Comment_120169113

Mainly Australia and the UK. Whatever about general cost of living stuff, we're literally one of the worst nations in the world at the minute when it comes to housing.

28-01-2023 12:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120168875#Comment_120168875

Yes Sir.

And it’s just common sense at the end of the day.

Furze99 · 28-01-2023 12:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120169091#Comment_120169091

This lack of public consultation on immigration policy is what will really cause problems down the line. I urge all to write to / contact your local public representatives and express concern. I've done so and strongly recommended that the state engages with citizens to explain the pros and cons of immigration strategy and that this should be followed by a public vote. Otherwise we are playing with fire and it's going to get hot.

Furze99 · 28-01-2023 12:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120169113#Comment_120169113

When the alternative is living with Mam & Dad well into your 30s, far off fields look a sight more attractive. Round here, Aus seems to be popular.

Mad_maxx · 28-01-2023 12:41pm

There is no reason we couldn’t switch to an Australian style immigration and asylum seeker system, it would make the NGO ( and their media lackeys ) apoplectic but let those NGO operatives put their name on a ballot paper instead of having their hands up the current excuse for elected politicians , what’s happening now is a subversion of our democracy

28-01-2023 12:46pm

It’s not racist to be conservative on this matter

Boggles · 28-01-2023 12:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120167430#Comment_120167430

The harsh realities of today's Ireland has landed us into emigration all over again in case you hadn't noticed

More Irish people have returned to Ireland than have left in the last recorded period.

It's not really a harsh reality at all is it? Irish people are leaving because they want to and coming back because they can, this wasn't always the case in the period you yearn for, which again was absolutely horrific.

NeutralHandle · 28-01-2023 1:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120169214#Comment_120169214

Google tells me, in multiple places, that the cost of living is greater in Australia.

When I hear about young people going there it is for adventure, not financial forces. They even forgo good career jobs to do it

Run Forest Run · 28-01-2023 2:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120169091#Comment_120169091

Very often it's more interesting what we, as citizens, DON'T get to vote on. Rather than what we DO get to vote on. And it can be a very good gauge of just how healthy a nation's democracy actually is.

As you rightly say, our country's immigration policies have a profound effect on all of our lives, and yet we seem to have very little say in the matter. Who could we even vote for in the next election, that might better represent the mood/concerns of the general population? Nobody... and that's a very worrying state of affairs.

And as regards ever getting some sort of referendum on a crucial issue such as this one? Far too risky, they wouldn't dream of giving the citizens that sort of power over our own lives!

Loafing Oaf · 28-01-2023 2:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120169474#Comment_120169474

Who could we even vote for in the next election, that might better represent the mood/concerns of the general population? Nobody

If you don't like any of the options on the political menu, you or others of like mind need to get into the kitchen and rustle up something yourself. That's how democracies work...

Mad_maxx · 28-01-2023 2:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120169502#Comment_120169502

New rules on party funding have made it extremely difficult for a new party with real capacity for change to emerge

TomTomTim · 28-01-2023 3:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120169583#Comment_120169583

Yeah, and realistically, any new party would need years and years of presence in the system to eventually get enough support to get any sort of real power, and I'm not sure if we can wait that long considering how bad things are. Political monopolies are very hard to break, no matter how bad said parties are. The UK & America are great examples of that.

Donald Trump · 28-01-2023 3:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120168350#Comment_120168350

Unlike many others on here, I understand Ireland's obligations as it pertains to people seeking asylum.

But have you any figures or evidence for the claim that "refugees have been extremely beneficial to the Irish economy" (emphasis added).

Are you lumping in "immigrants" with refugees?

We do have to accept IP applicants and we have to process them and we are obliged to grant asylum where it is warranted.

clytemnestra · 28-01-2023 3:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120169005#Comment_120169005

Agree. It's ridiculous to make sweeping generalisations about "immigrant children" as we have had people from so many very different cultures settle here. In my experience (living in a town with a very high and new immigrant population) children from some cultures settle well and will fit in easily to Irish life and contribute to our society. Others: total disaster, do not integrate, take huge resources from us and give nothing back but trouble and future generations of wasters. This piece in the Indo today:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/polish-in-ireland-our-community-has-been-invisible-even-though-its-so-large-42314483.html

I agree that Polish people could be represented more but her use of the word "invisible" is interesting. I think the fact that we don't see Polish people forming separate special interest groups and lobbying for resources and attention to be diverted towards them and claiming grievances and wrongs that are inflicted on them - surely that reflects how well they've settled in rather than the opposite? I've worked with and lived alongside many Polish people and found them hardworking, friendly and decent. I don't see their kids forming gangs or causing mayhem in my town. I expect that they will retain cultural and emotional ties to their ancestral land but in a generation will completely blend in with other Irish citizens. I wish this totally unremarkable kind of immigration was more celebrated and encouraged.

Packrat · 28-01-2023 3:17pm

We truly are the most apathetic nation of utter turkeys the world has ever produced.

No country in history has had ALL its elected political representatives advocating the destruction of its culture, customs, and traditions by way of population replacement on the scale going on here.

Our young forced to emigrate whilst they invite in the dregs of the world to replace them at our expense and cost.

Worse - a significant proportion of our indigenous population seem to hate themselves and their country men and women so much that they are cheerleading this and helping those who benefit financially from this in slapping down anyone who voices opposition or calls for a discussion on where our country is going.

It's a mirror image of when the RCC controlled us and we happily acquiesced.

I'm no far right voter - I was actually going to vote SF for the first time next election due to my anger at government corruption, nepotism and the balls they made of Covid, health, and the endless waste.

Now they are actually worse but there's no reasonable party to vote for, unless you're a raving looney like the NP or the Freedom crowd who I won't vote for.

For the first time in my life I'm ashamed to be Irish.

It's truly disgusting.

MegamanBoo · 28-01-2023 3:22pm

Time for a ~~zero refugee policy?~~

Time for building houses?

Fixed the thread. We don't have an immigration problem, we have a housing one.

It's a year since this war started and FFG haven't even managed to get some prefabs up.

Out. Out. Out.

28-01-2023 3:27pm

There is genuine people fleeing horrific situations in the world and they need our help...and then there is people who are fleeing parts of the world that are not in conflict whatsoever. The chancers need to be weeded out in order to create a fairer system for those in need

Luxembourgo · 28-01-2023 3:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120169667#Comment_120169667

And health? And schools? And transport?

28-01-2023 3:39pm

There is a cohort of lunatics out there who believe that a small island with considerably poor infrastructure, in the middle of a housing crisis, can house the whole world without any questions asked and unfortunately these same people dominate the conversation in this country in favour of a sensible debate on a well thought out immigration policy and they are backed up by weak politicians.

Yes, i fully accept that there is people in dire circumstance that need our help and yes we do have skills shortages in certain sectors, but there has to be more scrutiny on those applying for asylum and also work/residence permits. Yes the Irish moved everywhere during the famine and were accommodated all over the world, but this doesn't mean that you abandon logic completely.

walshb · 28-01-2023 3:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120166867#Comment_120166867

No… can we please quit this decades old used excuse. It’s fooking pathetic. “Shur didn’t the Irish travel everywhere.” Not at all relevant to what this debate is about: Refugees coming here seeking asylum due to not wanting to be living in their homeland.

28-01-2023 3:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120168577#Comment_120168577

Hes in great company in recent times, but surely one of the worst politicians this country has ever produced??? As weak a man as I've ever seen in power.

AIDAN8319 · 28-01-2023 3:48pm

Id be in favour of a zero refugee policy until we get our own house in order. If we cant even house our own people, how can we take Asylum seekers in.

The irony really is the main people championing mass in-migration are the ones primarily responsible for the housing crisis currently. Fine Gael

Another issue I have is these asylum seekers coming from other European countries. Farcical stuff

Mr. teddywinkles · 28-01-2023 3:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120169764#Comment_120169764

Well advertisg for genuine refugees to come here and letting them live on streets isnt going to help them too much or a drafty warehouse or god knows what.

Maybe letting go to a country that can actually house them would make sense and more helpful.

AIDAN8319 · 28-01-2023 3:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120169813#Comment_120169813

The main issue with that though is, other european countries, especially Germany & Italy have much tougher immigration laws & they wouldnt be able to make appeal after appeal if they were found to be illegal there

lmao10 · 28-01-2023 4:02pm

Fighting a losing battle lads.

It's natural for people to want to help other humans in need and to see them as humans like yourself. You can never win when you're completely outnumbered by people like that. Spouting bile in echo chambers feels good but the end result will be the same because it's the right result.

AIDAN8319 · 28-01-2023 4:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120169837#Comment_120169837

First of all, its not a losing battle, the protests have been growing since late last year.

Secondly, no one has a problem helping others in genuine need if they can afford to, they have a problem though helping illegal asylum seekers who're tearing up their documents & coming from countries not at war.

Jarhead_Tendler · 28-01-2023 4:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120168382#Comment_120168382

Green supporters and logic don't go together

Strazdas · 28-01-2023 4:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120169205#Comment_120169205

Irish public opinion is not going to be of much help in the specific area of refugees and asylum seekers. There are global norms in place such as international refugee law which every democracy is expected to sign up to and adhere to. The government can certainly consult with the public how and where asylum seekers will be placed, but opting out of the refugee system is a total non runner, not unless the country wants to 'go rogue'.

Hamachi · 28-01-2023 4:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120169837#Comment_120169837

You’re starting to sound a bit anxious there Mark.

It’s also natural for people to push back against others who are taking them for a ride. Those people ripping up their passports mid-flight, the Georgians, Albanians, Zimbabweans, South Africans making spurious asylum claims.

People don’t like their generosity being abused. That’s entirely natural. There will be a correction to address this anomalous blip and we will return to admitting more sustainable numbers of asylum seekers.

maninasia · 28-01-2023 4:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120168912#Comment_120168912

Its not about assigning blame.

It is about dealing with the problem of reducing fraudlent asylum claims which are putting a burden on our society and reducing funds and goodwill to genuone refugees.

AIDAN8319 · 28-01-2023 4:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120169874#Comment_120169874

How many times does this have to be discussed, we have an opt in/opt out policy in place with the EU so we dont need to go 'rogue' to address the issue.

Secondly, if there was progress towards addressing the ridiculous delay & appeal process of the asylum application process, people might be a bit more relaxed about everything.

TomTomTim · 28-01-2023 4:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120169837#Comment_120169837

It's natural for people to want to help other humans

Totally agree, but the basic principle is that you look after your nearest first, then others if you can. We're not looking after our nearest, so we can't look after others. If the first problem didn't exist, you'd have a point, but it does, so you don't. Humans are primarily self centered, and if they aren't being looked after, they'll care little about the fact that others aren't. You've a genuinely naive view of human psychology, as very few would allow themselves to suffer in the name of benefiting others, especially others that they've no real connection to.

Annasopra · 28-01-2023 4:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120169884#Comment_120169884

Of course it is. You dont have people screaming "get them out" for no reason.

maninasia · 28-01-2023 4:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120169897#Comment_120169897

Unless you have concrete examples of posters who said that here you should remove that comment.

enricoh · 28-01-2023 4:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120169837#Comment_120169837

Right wing governments in Italy, Sweden, Austria nowadays. Denmark aiming for zero asylum seekers n the Brits wanna send them to Rwanda.

All countries enriched a few years earlier than us. Are those countries residents spouting bile in echo chambers n fighting a losing battle too?!

AIDAN8319 · 28-01-2023 4:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120169915#Comment_120169915

Not to mention France nearly voted in Marie Le Pen who's far right, if she was a little more capable & moderate in some of her views, I believe she would have got in.

Boggles · 28-01-2023 5:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120169943#Comment_120169943

Not to mention France nearly voted in Marie Le Pen who's far right

No they didn't, the only time there was been a wider margin in a Presidential Election was her in 2017 and when her father was completely humiliated in 2002.

Austria and Italy have had centre right parties in the recent past and the Swedish PM is about as right wing as Ryan Giggs. Here he is with his children.

TomTomTim · 28-01-2023 6:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120170135#Comment_120170135

Crazy, that "right wing" means racial purity to you. Most on the right don't care about stuff like that, some do, but most don't.

Time for a zero refugee policy? - *Read OP for mod warnings - updated 11/5/24*

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Time for a zero refugee policy? - Read OP for mod warnings - updated 11/5/24