Time for a zero refugee policy? - Read OP for mod warnings - updated 11/5/24

Bobtheman · 27-01-2023 6:09pm #1

Let's get this out of way. We have to support Ukrainians because Russia is threatening a European democracy.

No issue here but I think outside of this we should aim for a zero refugee policy.

It's ridiculous that some people are arriving in Ireland having skipped over an entire continent.

We simply do not presently have the room.

Perhaps in future the West will design a modern refugee system that actually reflects modern transport rather than the farce of pretending that a person travelling thousands of miles is a true refugee.

I'm not racist. I have no issue with legal immigration and a reformed refugees system

But until that let's follow Denmark

https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/denmark-had-a-goal-of-zero-asylum-seekers-until-ukraine-was-invaded-by-russia/#:~:text=The%20Danish%20government%20had%20a,Ukraine%20was%20invaded%20by%20Russia.&text=Denmark%20is%20the%20only%20country,percentage%20of%20refugees%20last%20year.

Mod warning posted 06/03/23

Personal so called anecdotes are what caused the original Ukrainian refugee thread to be closed

Any more can expect threadbans

Any questions PM me - do not respond to this warning in thread

Mod warning posted 11/04/23

A reminder

This thread is about refugees not people who migrate to Ireland for other reasons

Any questions PM me - do not respond to this post in-thread

Mod warning posted 13/04/23

A warning to everyone . If you cannot be civil do not post. If you think someone is posting inaccurate information, or indeed trying to twist facts to suit their agenda, do not accuse them of lying. Point out their inaccuracies and move on. This thread is taking an inappropriate proportion of mod resource and we will deal with that by removing posting privileges if posters cannot follow some very straightforward mod instructions or indeed forum or site rules

Mod warning posted 17/05/23

Drop any further discussion about the current situation in Ukraine. There is a thread dedicated to the conflict. This thread is about Ireland's refugee policy

Mod warning posted 26/11/23

No discussion of the stabbings or subsequent riots permitted

Mod waring posted 5/1/24

This thread is nothing to do with Sharia Law, so please drop that discussion

Mod warning posted 3/5/24

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Mod warning posted 11/5/24

This thread is about Ireland's Refugee policy. It is not a general immigration thread and it will be closed as the previous immigration thread was if posters continue to try and push it in that direction

Overheal · 27-01-2023 6:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058281647/time-for-a-zero-refugee-policy

The Denmark exception for ukraine proves there will always be an exception and a zero refugee policy is not practical. Sounds great around election time though I bet.

edit: This was an amazing photo on reddit the other day, this is a current ISS image of Ireland and the UK. You can see how disparate the population density is between the two countries. Probably belongs here, click for full res. Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/space/comments/10irlba/england_and_ireland_on_a_rare_clear_day/

Yurt2 · 27-01-2023 6:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058281647/time-for-a-zero-refugee-policy

Did you read the article? Denmark negotiated an opt-out (among many) decades ago from Justice and Home Affairs after they rejected the Maastricht Treaty via referendum. If you want to get in a time machine and have a do-over of Maastricht, call up your mate Marty McFly to see if you can borrow the DeLorean.

We can't go picking and choosing the EU laws we adhere to. We're either in or we're out.

NSAman · 27-01-2023 6:19pm

Vote Yes for Jobs... if I remember correctly!

Yurt2 · 27-01-2023 6:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120166462#Comment_120166462

That was Nice. Nothing to do with Maastricht.

Marcos · 27-01-2023 6:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120166445#Comment_120166445

Yet Ireland has an opt out on the Area of Freedom, Security and Justice, like Denmark. Under EU law the Area of Freedom, Security and Justice (AFSJ) covers is "a policy domain concerning home affairs & migration" Denmark has a similar opt out. The Danes excercised theirs, but the Irish powers that be in thrall to NGO's have chosen not to excercise ours. Our involvement in taking the numbers that we are currently taking in and can't accommodate, is entirely voluntary and can be changed overnight, if the powers that be wished it. So please let's drop that canard, that we have to do it, the big bad EU made us do it.

Marcos · 27-01-2023 6:42pm

Oh, and for those slow on the uptake, this is a quote from the horses mouth:

Ireland currently has no European Union obligation to take in refugees as it has an opt-in or opt-out clause on individual proposals in the areas of freedom, security and justice through the EU Treaty of Lisbon.

Those who don't wish to acknowledge this, feel free to look away, put your hands over your ears and scream la la la la la I can't hear you. Or something similar.

Overheal · 27-01-2023 6:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120166609#Comment_120166609

Next paragraph reads ... However, Ireland has chosen to participate in EU relocation and resettlement schemes and established the Irish Refugee Protection Programme (IRPP) as part of its response to the 2015-16 migrant crisis.

Under this programme, Ireland committed to accept up to 4,000 people into the State through EU and UNHCR Refugee Resettlement Programmes.

In December 2019, plans were unveiled for Ireland to welcome up to a further 2,900 refugees between 2020 and 2023 through a combination of resettlement programmes and a new Community Sponsorship Ireland initiative.

Ireland benefited from €68.6 million of EU funding to help manage migration from 2015 to 2020. The funding was made up of €58.1 million from the Asylum, Migration and Integration Fund (AMIF) and €10.5 million from the Internal Security Fund (ISF).

The AMIF supports Member States in managing migration flows while funding under the ISF supports efforts to protect the security of citizens and manage the EU’s external borders. The total EU AMIF allocation for 2021-2027 will amount to €9.9 billion. The overall ISF budget for the period will be around €1.9 billion.

Patrick2010 · 27-01-2023 6:52pm

Yeah I posted that in the other thread I’m now banned from. We had the opt out and choose not to use it.

Kieran Cuddihy has O Gorman on now giving out to him that there are loads of community centres and parish halls we could be using. He played a tape interviewing some 18 year Yemen lad who flew in from Greece last night and has nowhere to stay

Patrick2010 · 27-01-2023 6:56pm

O Gorman saying they’re looking at hotels still as well as quoting our “obligations “ again. Cuddihy asked why can’t we use basketball courts to house them

Marcos · 27-01-2023 7:00pm

However, Ireland has chosen to participate . . .

Note the word chosen? It's there in black and white that it's a choice, we're not being made to do it by the big bad EU as some politicians / civil servants / NGOs etc dishonestly tell us. And dishonesty is a large part of their argument IMO.

As a society, I think we need to be able to have an honest debate about the pros and cons before we can make a proper decision on what to do. But there are a lot of vested interests who don't want to have such a debate because the current situation suits them. Despite more and more people questioning whether it is sustainable. The current situation is also causing large numbers of the electorate to feel increasingly alienated from their elected representatives and politics in general. I think we can all agree that this is not a good thing.

Annasopra · 27-01-2023 7:00pm

Its not possible under international law. We signed upto the 1951 UN Geneva Convention. We have legal obligations as a state.

rob316 · 27-01-2023 7:07pm

Ukranian and war refugees absolutely, anyone else "sorry no room at the inn".

Its open season on our immigration policy or lack of.

TomTomTim · 27-01-2023 7:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120166717#Comment_120166717

We really don't. International law is both weak and hard to enforce. There's little to no cost to us if we decided to ignore it, especially given the context of what's happening. The health of the nation should trump a convention that we signed 70 years ago, when the world was a very different place.

Patrick2010 · 27-01-2023 7:07pm

So the opt out option we were offered when voting on Lisbon treaty was a con?

The 1951 convention trumps any EU referendum we were offered, is that right?, so Ireland was fooled again?

Annasopra · 27-01-2023 7:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120166755#Comment_120166755

Yeah we cant just ignore international law. The world doesnt work that way. Your claim of little to no cost is absurd nonsense.

Bobtheman · 27-01-2023 7:19pm

Unfortunately leo and Simon C have their eyes on a big EU job and will continue to be good boys to secure that.

Ireland traditionally tries to keep its head up the EU arse except for the night of the bank guarantee in which they decided to not get Europe's backing - allowing the EU to insist that the bail out was totally our idea.

The only hope is that word gets round that coming to Ireland is a bad idea at present.

TomTomTim · 27-01-2023 7:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120166778#Comment_120166778

You can though. International law isn't real law, especially in regard to such policies.

Is International Law really a law?

It is one of the most controversial questions that has been debated and on which jurist’s opinions hugely differ. One view considers International law not a true law, rather, a code of rule of conduct backed by morality. On the other hand, International law is considered to be a true law and is regarded as a law, similar to that of ordinary laws of a state, binding upon the citizens.

What are the consequences if we decided to ignore them? As real laws usually have real consequences.

Kat1170 · 27-01-2023 7:31pm

What about the thousands of Irish economic migrants we export all over the globe every year. Are we happy to have them turned back because, well, what's good for the goose.

francie81 · 27-01-2023 7:34pm

Can someone enlighten me into how one applies for asylum when they happen to own 1 or 2 properties along with a business of some sort back home, I really do not get this I mean how are asylum’s assessed if at all?

whisky_galore · 27-01-2023 7:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120166867#Comment_120166867

Fair enough if they go there legally. Our so-called "undocumented" in the states I have zero sympathy for, they knew the rules and chose to chance it. Its embarrassing that year after year our dear leader travels over for the Paddys Day junket and begs to give these absolute chancers a break.

Hamachi · 27-01-2023 7:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120166867#Comment_120166867

You’re conflating people who migrate legally, secure visas, and often bring valuable skill sets, with current influx of spurious asylum claims, many of whom have either arrived from neighboring EU countries or conveniently destroyed their passports somewhere over the Irish Sea.

Really? Try applying a smidgen of logic..

enricoh · 27-01-2023 7:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120166867#Comment_120166867

Have we given up the pretence of them being refugees at this stage?!

Pretty sure the main places paddies go you get in if you're of use to the country- oz, Canada, us, Dubai etc. They take who they need in and in the numbers required.

The polar opposite of Ireland at the minute.

Sallywag37 · 27-01-2023 7:57pm

I think there should be a total and immediate ban on accepting any more refugees, from anywhere. The country is at breaking point in every conceivable respect. The tragedy of it is there would have been no need to even raise the idea if successive governments hadn't spent the last thirty years allowing countless thousands of economic migrants from safe countries to pretend they were refugees, or to shoehorn their way in here pre '04 by arriving in the latest stages of their pregnancies. That's before we even get into Bacik overturning the will of the people by sleight of hand or McEntee's amnesty for illegal immigrants. A thirty year long string of stupid decisions have left us unable to help people genuinely fleeing violence, and those poor souls have the cowards inside Leinster House and the liars outside it to thank for it.

Boggles · 27-01-2023 8:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120166806#Comment_120166806

Unfortunately leo and Simon C have their eyes on a big EU job and will continue to be good boys to secure that

Which big jobs would these be? It's a claim that is often citied.

I can think of maybe 5-6 ex politicians who took up jobs with the EU in the past 20-30 years and most of them didn't last very long in those jobs.

So in your own time.

Ireland traditionally tries to keep its head up the EU arse

Except for Brexit and that time we took them to court to give an American company back billions. 🤷‍♀️

Boggles · 27-01-2023 8:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120166982#Comment_120166982

The country is at breaking point in every conceivable respect

Calm down, it really isn't.

Count Dracula · 27-01-2023 8:06pm

I work with a lot of lovely people who have benefitted from our compassion in accommodating them as refugees. Some of them are now Irish Citizens and other are in the process of generating their existence here.

I would not feel comfortable supporting any notions of this country not affording options or amnesty to foreign born persons who need somewhere safe to continue their lives?

This country survived handsomely with over 2 million extra inhabitants, long before the invention of modern democracy and its' paraphernalia. I can't fathom how the topic of assisting a few tens of thousands a year in having a future is such an issue?

The lack of compassion exhibited by some of these notions is not in the least bit endearing. Thinking that your birthright entitles you to some sort of choice on the options of the future of other people is extremely naive?

Stop living your lives through fear.

Kat1170 · 27-01-2023 8:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120166920#Comment_120166920

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120166926#Comment_120166926

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120166944#Comment_120166944

Oh right, I forgot, y'all referring to the fact our economic emigrants are white, godd'it 😉👍️

Dufflecoat Fanny · 27-01-2023 8:13pm

Is our system not kind of two faced in that we accept them all but reject most of them all eventually anyway? A quagmire of bureaucracy designed to put off by word of mouth.

keynes · 27-01-2023 8:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120166806#Comment_120166806

Clearly, and thanks in large part to the protests, the government position has changed, but they're too in thrall to international bodies to say so. Instead, they're relying on the welfare tourists and freeloaders to tell their mates on Tiktok. Could they bring in more if they really wanted to? Of course. It's completely incoherent to say there's space for Ukrainians but not for others. But something fundamental has changed. They'll soon get a curt call from Brussels, however, so I don't see this lasting; rather, they're testing the waters.

Sallywag37 · 27-01-2023 8:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120167023#Comment_120167023

I wonder how calm you'd be if you'd spent the last twenty years on a housing list or the last twenty hours on a hospital trolly? I was born in the mid 70's and am constantly amazed at the erosion of Irish life, having been raised in what were supposedly the bad old days, where you could visit a GP later on the same day you made the appointment, be treated immediately in A&E, house prices were within the grasp of many working people and the average wait for social housing was three to four years. By the standards of my youth, this country is no longer liveable.

Mr. teddywinkles · 27-01-2023 8:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120166867#Comment_120166867

Pretty sure I wouldn't get free accommodation in the US legal or illegal entry

Boggles · 27-01-2023 8:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120167104#Comment_120167104

I wouldn't know I bought my own house.

I also grew up in the 70s and 80s, it was absolutely horrific, half the people in my housing estate didn't finish school and had to emigrate.

I'd suggest anyone yearning for that era again either has memory problems or didn't live through them.

Kyokushin Grappler · 27-01-2023 8:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120166609#Comment_120166609

And yet they'll still trot out the 'There's nothing we can do" excuse. There's no place to accommodate them, our Housing and Hospital systems are strained to the max and they're still bringing them in an unsustainable numbers. Ireland is being run by some very Evil people.

francois · 27-01-2023 8:31pm

How many refugee threads can we cram into IMHO?

Galwayguy35 · 27-01-2023 8:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120167029#Comment_120167029

Whats with the getto speak.

jam_mac_jam · 27-01-2023 9:04pm

Why don't you aim for a unicorn and three wishes for everyone. It's about as likely.

Nobody is going to support a no refugees policy.

Yellow_Fern · 27-01-2023 9:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120167012#Comment_120167012

No. Id argue through Brexit they did try to be the best boys in the class. FG pushed the Single Market as if it was sacred entity whose enforcement (checks) could not be changed to suit our complex border situation. Ireland's hard line on the Single Market has led to a radicalisation of the Tories preventing Britain from returning, and for what purpose? Was the Single Market really under threat and if so why are we making concessions allowing a light touch approach to checks now?

enricoh · 27-01-2023 9:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120167029#Comment_120167029

Read the 3 posts and couldn't see any mention of colour. Maybe 'twas yerself that brought it up! If all else fails - cry racism!

Galwayguy35 · 27-01-2023 9:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120167323#Comment_120167323

Trouble is half the lads who show up here that are called refugees are really economic migrants.

Sallywag37 · 27-01-2023 9:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120167124#Comment_120167124

I'd suggest pointing out the shortfalls of the present doesn't indicate a yearning for the past. The harsh realities of today's Ireland has landed us into emigration all over again in case you hadn't noticed, not this time because there isn't a job to be found but because there's nowhere to lay your head. Anyone who thinks pumping the worlds poor in on top of this situation is a good idea ought to look up the meaning of 'sustainability' or perhaps 'powder keg.'

maninasia · 27-01-2023 9:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120166867#Comment_120166867

How many of them are asylum seekers?

No comparison whatsoever.

Fail.

maninasia · 27-01-2023 9:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120167027#Comment_120167027

Yes they are so lovely throw open your doors for them all. Lots of room.

Its all going SO WELL.

Ludicrous, the place is already bursting at the seams.

Count Dracula · 27-01-2023 10:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120167465#Comment_120167465

Why because the price of ice cream is costing you a good night's sleep?

There is room for another 2 million people in this island, at the very least?

What is the problem with supporting people from other lands or places. What is so wrong with that?

I think your concept that everyone is having them in their houses is naive. The reason why RTE showed for example Ukrainian nationals being housed by Irish volunteers is that it was part of a wider campaign to encourage homeowners to give their houses and properties over. It is called propaganda.

Media raising the issue of overcrowding has the advantage of not only raising public awareness about what is actually happening with refugees in Ireland whilst enabling gormless fascist cretins to be analysed, sub divided and then manipulated by global web platforms, that know where you live, all your bank details, what type of sex you are really into and how often you spend online spouting indecipherable sentences of garbage, which you feel might escalate your polarised over influenced opinion into something that actually matters?

There are worse problems than accommodating people in temporary dwellings whilst they figure out what they are doing? Refugees need amnesty and assistance. When an enemy you don't even understand comes and burns your house down after raping your wives and daughters and laughing at you running away up the street you might have a different focus on how important it is that people who are suffering under perilous regimes and other chaos have the potential to live a life somewhere away from that mayhem. Where ever it is.

Help is available and being offered, I am proud of that and especially proud of the people enabling these options for those who are lost, alone and lonely in a country a long long way from their homes and loved ones. Fair play to them.

Hamachi · 27-01-2023 10:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120167029#Comment_120167029

Well that didn’t take long...

It’s just futile to expect any reasoning from you people.

dublin49 · 27-01-2023 10:05pm

40% of the refugees arriving have no passport and so the simplistic "send them back" doesn't apply,as we don't know where to send them back to and good luck trying to get Italy or Greece to take em back because that was the safe country they came from. .Theres a simple answer to this but also a practically insurmountable problem.Answer: all Airlines/Shipping lines bringing customers into Ireland must provide a photocopy of the Passport that allowed the customer to travel with their company.Problem,airlines or Shipping lines wont play ball and will threaten to stop flying into Ireland if we try to introduce this.I think we will eventually see a version of this but expect massive resistance initially.

AlekSmart · 27-01-2023 10:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120166609#Comment_120166609

I've just been leafing through a 32 page FoI response from the Dept of Justice relating to 2019. Purchase orders in respect of Asylum Seeker Accomodation,Support and Maintenance. It makes for interesting and sombre reading.5,164 Purchase Orders over €20,000. A small cross section to give some context. Ref 85774: Millstreet Equestrian Services.-€458,640. 85776:Fazyard Ltd 1 & 2 - €961,520,Ref 85777: Mint Horizon €1,019,200, 85859:Vesta Hotels T/A Grand Hotel Wicklow Town €1,196,580,86368:Orona Midwestern Lifts Ltd-€143,216, 86363:EY Chartered Accountants- €340,303,18, 86501 Mosney Holidays PLC- €209,888 86582 Mosney Holidays PLC-€4,704,000 , 86646: Mosney Holidays PLC- €588,000, Millstreet Equestrian Services - €2,504,880. 86776:Cawley Nea TBWA Ltd- €215,179.16....88743: The International Organization for Migration - €413,872.00.... Page after page with multiple payments to many companies. Four years on,I very much doubt that any great degree of sanity or commonsense has managed to infiltrate the Department of Justice in regard to the gay abandon which it scatters (our) money around the "Hospitality",I.T.,Security and Transport Industries in order to ensure "We" maintain our place at the top of the table. NOTHING about this has the slightest to do with actual need for asylum or protection,but in reality it is about maintaining a self feeding trough system for "the usual suspects". The end result of this plantation will be a divided and fearful country,where our futures will be determined by people with a strong and imposing agenda centreing on dominance.

Furze99 · 27-01-2023 10:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120167027#Comment_120167027

"This country survived handsomely with over 2 million extra inhabitants, long before the invention of modern democracy and its' paraphernalia."

Are you referring to early 19th century, pre famine?? If so, that's bizarre - you had many people living in relative squalor then, in cabins and mud botháns or tramping the country sleeping in sheds and ditches. You can't be serious?

Your average international asylum seeker arriving here now expects a higher standard...........

And therein lies a problem, we have a good population of 20/30 something year olds being screwed on rent and priced out of housing purchase, turned back to live at home, whilst we are lectured on meeting our legal obligations to house anyone who rocks up in Dublin airport. Something is wrong in the kingdom.

Galwayguy35 · 27-01-2023 10:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120167608#Comment_120167608

So what about the ones who show up with no passports?

What do you want to do with them ?

Galwayguy35 · 27-01-2023 10:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120167630#Comment_120167630

That very question was put to some NGO on Drivetime today, she waffled her way out of it saying she wasn't there to talk about that issue and of course O Hara didn't push it any further with her.

Hamachi · 27-01-2023 10:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120167608#Comment_120167608

How are you helping yourself? Presumably you’re offering up a room in your home, given that the government is broadcasting far and wide that they simply cannot accommodate any further asylum seekers at this time.

I hope you are availing of this singular opportunity to demonstrate your undoubted altruism? I’m so proud of you xxx.

Time for a zero refugee policy? - *Read OP for mod warnings - updated 11/5/24*

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Time for a zero refugee policy? - Read OP for mod warnings - updated 11/5/24