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Domestic Solar PV Quotes 2022 - No PM requests - See Mod note post #1

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭DC999


    Also, based on my experience and others here get as many panels on Day1 that 1) you can afford 2) the roof fits 3) and inverter can handle. Will be the cheapest to do now while they are onsite. You’ve 6.2kWp of panels and the 6kW inverter can take more. Ask the installer to see how to oversize that so they will sell you more panels. Scan the recent threads here and you’ll see that’s safe to do that up to ~1.5 times of panels to the inverter size - depending on the inverter spec and roof direction. You've good pricing there, which is great to see!



  • Registered Users Posts: 39 D.flynn


    Hi DC99, thanks for the info. Although I'm new to PV, I am a qualified electrician and have done many building works such as bathroom renovations, Complete central heating installs and extensions (including roofs)

    I'm confident in my skill to do the complete install but for me the initial hurdle is ensuring i pick the correct hardware, for instance, with the exception of huawei, I never heard of any of the other brands prior to researching PV, so dont know whats a good reliable make as opposed to an "ok" one. I also dont want to get stuck with a single ecosystem as in i believe some hybrid inverters only play nice with their own battery whereas i may like to try a different manufacturer or even build my own battery.


    My roof measures 8900mm X 5050mm( i actually got up there with a tape). If going the grant route, I believe that regulations require the panels to be installed 500mm from any edge, therefore, giving me a usable space of 7900mm X 4050mm. either way, I think i'm still limited to 14 panels (2X7) if i want to maintain some buffer from the edge, so best i can do is maximize the wattage of the installed panels.

    Tonight i'm going to go into the attic and mark out the truss distances on a drawing as i want to get as much planning correct earlier on before i pull the trigger.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Manion


    Generally there is a ratio of size to output with bigger panels not necessarily more efficient than smaller panels. I think you're should be able to get 16 410watt panels up. Shadow from a chimney or vents might limit this.



  • Registered Users Posts: 39 D.flynn


    Ya, possibly. Shadows are my next problem as I know i will have a shadow from a neighbours chimney on some panels, but so far I dont know how many panels. this throws up another hurdle of would i be better off with micro inverters ? and this is a question i dont know how to answer just yet.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Manion


    You definitely don't want panels in shadow as it will lower the power output for all panels on the same string. I think you should look at optimisers a head of micro inverters https://instylesolar.com/blog/how-does-a-solar-panel-optimiser-work/

    im unsure actually when you would use one over the other.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭DC999



    I'd suggest get quotes and designs for that. So ask them to answer all the Qs you have here. Then you can cost up the exact same kit yourself and decide if you go DIY (as a qualified sparks so you've that part sorted). With DIY you're saving on labour with DIY but losing the grant. Might be interesting to see what the final gap is.

    Shading will drag down every panel on that string, so it's bad. But if it's only for the start and end of a day, then output is lower then. So may not be worth it. Only need optimisers for the shaded panels. Look at your shading and what is causing it. Take photos. Shade from neighbours roof, neighbours chimney, tree... Bear in mind window sun is very low so causes shading you'll never see outside winter. It rises and sets in different places too (closer to S than E and W). So don't put optimisers on for just winter shading. You might have a photo of the roof from a few years ago. The date and time on that will tell you what light and shadows are like.

    I've optimisers on 5 of 16. They are on a flat roof and all year round it gets shaded earlier in the day when the sun moves around the house. They are a huge benefit for me or they would drag all the panels on that string down. There’s always a lot of debate with people on when to get them. For me, in that situation, they are great.

    Afaik microinverters are better suited to a smaller DIY with less panels. And won't need optimisers then as micro inverter manages that. PV installers are not using microinverters, we just don't see microinverters in the quotes threads here.

    Bear in mind many installers want an easy life, so you may have to push for more info, a design that better suits you….



  • Registered Users Posts: 39 D.flynn


    Thanks for that. it was a good read.

    some good ideas there. id say i would only need 4 optimisers, possibly 6 if i ignore the shading in winter and just focus on the summer shadows.

    what optimisers do you have ?



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,425 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    Re optimisers:

    This is a very good video on it

    (and part 2)

    Tldw, if shading is diffuse(trees etc) optimisers help.

    If a shadow is hard enough to trigger the bypass diodes in the panel, it won't help



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Manion


    That's a great video. I was weary at the start but didn't know about the Bypass diode wasn't. I wonder in that instance then if you're better off getting two smaller panels in area that will be shaded by the chimney so that the bypass diode kicks in earlier as I guess the diode is triggered by a voltage drop as oppose to current.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭DC999



    Cool, I'll watch that.

    Biggest difference I've seen is some panels on 15W and others on 130W. Ok, that's hardly the norm but it's a huge variance. Our optimised panels get some shading in the morning (rising sun). And afternoon (when sun moves around the hour). And it's different panels impacted by shade in morning V afternoon (due to where the sun and shade is)



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭DC999


    I've Huawei inverter so needed Huawei optimisers afaik, well installer used them anyway. I see you mentioned maybe getting Huawei kit. I wouldn't bother as they are dearer and have a few other 'gotchas'.

    Nightmare to integrate with home automation (using free Home Assistant software) if you want to do that in time. It's actually much easier than it sounds. Or with other inverters you can even get Alexa to do certain basic things. Huawei won't 'talk' to any of that without a huge amount of work.

    So say I wanted to turn on an electric rad (during the day) once there was excess solar going back to the grid. I could do that automatically and easily from certain inverters. And it could turn off automatically once the spare solar dropped again. Or auto turn on the washing machine if the battery had X% of charge left. At the start I couldn't imagine I'd want to bother with that. But would be good now the price of electricity is scary.

    So while they only sell hybrid inverters (so is ‘battery ready’), they lock you into only 2 types of batteries. Actually 2, that's it! And they cost over 1 grand per 1kWh - which is hugely expensive. I don’t have a battery for that reason. Ok, battery is supposed to have less electrical losses due to being high voltage battery versus others like pylontech that are low voltage. Won't pretend to know more on how that = less losses - you're the sparks so understand I'm sure :)

    And the warranty length is great on the Huawei kit but I don’t expect it to die before the warranty ends. But I’ve since come around to thinking that kit is kit, brand matters less once it does what you need. 



  • Registered Users Posts: 39 D.flynn


    That's great to know as i'm a big Home assistant fan. Thanks.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭DC999


    If you do get a Huawei inverter and get it connected to home Assistant, do please let me know how you set it up and I'll copy what worked for you :)



  • Registered Users Posts: 69 ✭✭verizon


    Two Quotes, all installed south facing

    First:

    - 5kw Inverter

    - 13 panels

    - After Grant €10,500 (vat inc)


    Second:

    - 5.6kW size Solar PV system, 14 400 Watt Solar PV Panels.

    - Pitched roof mounting kit incl. retrofit kit, bracketing, clamps and remaining materials.

    - Fireman Safety Switch (Shunt)

    - DC Isolator switch

    - AC Isolator switch

    - Operation & Maintenance Manual Provided

    - Fully installed & commissioned by a Safe Electric registered electrician.

    "Special Features Included"

    - Eddi Power Diverter. Diverts all excess energy towards your immersion heater.

    - 3.5kWh Battery Storage. Stores surplus energy for later use.

    - Wi-Fi Remote Monitoring. Allows convenient monitoring of system performance from

    14,800 after grant.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,425 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    Both seem very high.

    I got a quote for 15 panel 6Kw/h system for 7,400 after the grant , adding a 5Kw/h battery and an Eddi took the quote to ~11k after the Grant.



  • Registered Users Posts: 69 ✭✭verizon


    Thanks for confirming, I was quite shocked but also unsure so I'll perhaps keep asking around



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Manion


    As a rule of thumb when you see people throwing standard equipment such as isolation switches and firemen switches it's smells. Every installation will have to exact same basic set of requirements. When that is combined with a total lack of details around the really important customizable and differentiable aspects of your install such as Inverter size, Inverter Model, Battery Make and Model, Panels Make and Model, shouts avoid. A quote should be 3 lines like this:

    * 8.2 kWp - 20 410 Longi panels - LR5-53HPB-410M

    * 10.6 kW - Waco 5k3 Batteries - DC Connected

    * 6 kWh - Solis Invertor - Solis-RH1-6K048ES-5G

    Clear, specific, comparable. Everything else other than maybe an Eddie thrown is the same from one vendor to the next.



  • Registered Users Posts: 434 ✭✭tipping


    So have my 3 quotes from different people now and just clarifying a few points with them. I'm trying to maximise the south facing aspect and have had

    Supplier B - Say they can fit 6-8 panels on the south roof

    Supplier C - Say then can fit 18 panels on the same roof..

    So I reckoned I'd do some calculations myself and it seems to come down to being able to fit a long row in landscape underneath the lower (fire escape) veluxes or not. The gap between the bottom of the velux and the bottom of the roof is 1.75m so allowing 0.5m edge clearance to the edge of roof you have 1.25 x 15m left which will take 8-9 panels in landscape. This isn't leaving much clearance to the bottom of the velux though.

    Does anyone know what the recommended clearance to windows is? I can't see it in the SEAI documentation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭DC999


    I don’t know the SEAI distances. But..once you agree with the installer to hold back the final payment for the amount of the grant, it’s with the installer to ensure you pass the audit. You’re not telling them to breach the grant guidelines, they are designing the system. And get it agreed that if it fails the audit, the installer will correct at no cost to you. Not every premise will get audited in person. But all require the installer to submit documentation as evidence including photos. So if they submit something incorrectly to SEAI (knowingly or otherwise), they are at fault.

    That’s some difference of 10-12 more panels on a single roof. If that installer that can fit 18 and the inverter can take it, you’re sorted. And you’ll have great output on that S roof.  

    You need to request the SEAI grant application before the installer does any work.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 205 ✭✭OO7FITZY


    from reading the comments on Huawei kit...the advice seems to be their hardware is priced at a premium that is hard to justify and they also lock you into their proprietary tech for any future upgrades - is that fair to say?

    Couple of questions as I have cheaper quotes without huawei kit:

    Any feedback on ERGOCELL hybrid inverters with CATL LFP battery - are these good brands / reliable?

    Also - have a zappi charger connected to myenergi hub - will the above still work and communicate with Solarman app that is recommended with the ERGOCELL hybrid inverters / CATL LFP battery or how will it work so I can prioritize where the electricity generated from the PV panels goes or energy from the battery if charged on the night rate in winter?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭DC999


    Yep, I have a Huawei inverter and agree with your 1st paragraph. I'd suggest you look at alternatives.

    I can't speak for the rest you asked.



  • Registered Users Posts: 205 ✭✭OO7FITZY


    thx DC999


    also have quotes for GiveEnergy inverter and GiveEnergy battery with same question if these good brands / reliable and how will myenergi hub and zappi work with this hardware?

    A big selling point for the battery is charging up on the night rate so at least worst case in winter you should be able to get a lot of your energy on night rates and I want to make sure I can set it on a timer to turn on and off at correct times and discharge when needed



  • Registered Users Posts: 13 CountryExile


    Do you require approval from ESB to go above 5kW inverter? ........ 8 kW system but installer inputting 5kW inverter



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭DC999


    Every battery will let you charge up on night rate in winter. Which is what everyone with solar and batteries does to save money. I don't have a battery

    And during winter you'd fill the EV and Eddi for hot water on the cheaper night rate too. But you'd likely do that from the MyEnergie app direct - it let's you have a recurring schedule or charge adhoc as needed. As in you don't charge a large car battery from a small house battery (or rarely so). New Zappis (since some time last year) have a Hub built in (Hub is to manage more than 1 MyEnergie device connected together), older ones didn't so needed a separate Hub afaik

    Afaik @bullit_dodger has a GiveEnergy battery

    Tbh, inverters are pretty much all the same. When buying, I got sucked into the marketing spiel on how X was better than Y. Each installer wants you to believe their offering is superior.



  • Registered Users Posts: 824 ✭✭✭HotSwap


    Well you need to submit an NC6 application regardless of the size of the inverter. But Up to 6kwh is permitted via the NC6 route so you might as well get a 6kw inverter and apply for 6kw too. The amount of panels you have installed behind the inverter is not taken into consideration.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 434 ✭✭tipping


    Nice idea. I'll look into that. Hoping to select supplier and order this week



  • Registered Users Posts: 824 ✭✭✭HotSwap


    You can go closer to the edge than 500mm if you get an engineer to sign it off with wind load calcs. You can also mitigate some of the wind loading by installing skirts around the edges of the panels so the wind is forced over the panel rather than under it; and these also stop birds nesting under them. But you’ll need an engineer; if you want to go closer than 500 and still get the grant.

    Another option is just install them how you want and forget about the grant. As long as it’s structurally safe.



  • Registered Users Posts: 87 ✭✭smax71


    Just want to clarify are you advising that you should hold back €2400 from the installer final payment until SEAI approve the installation? I've spoken to a couple of guys and both want full payment of balance o/s on day of installation. I'm a bit concerned about that in case they need to return for snagging issues but I hadn't even considered what might happen if the SEAI didnt approve the installation. Is it normal to retain a balancing paymentfor until snagging issues resolved / SEAI approval obtained



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭DC999


    I paid 50% when ordered. Didn't pay balance on install day. Thankfully. As I had a lot of snags. And some didn't appear straight away until I realised something needed a tweak. Was hard enough to get them fixed owing 50%



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,077 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    Hey folks,

    Just received the following quote for a 3.7kwh system.

    9 X Jinko 415w panels

    1 X 5kw Huawei Inverter

    Supply, fit and commissioning

    Total: €9300 - Grant €2190 for a nett total of €7110

    I note that the post for BER isn't included. Any steer on whether this price offers any value would be appreciated.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,571 ✭✭✭con747


    Expensive, and going with the Huawei inverter you are restricted to a couple of expensive battery brands if getting batteries down the road if that's a hybrid inverter quoted. Some here like the Huawei stuff but most think it's overpriced for what you get in comparison to the alternatives which are cheaper but just as good quality wise.

    Don't expect anything from life, just be grateful to be alive.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,077 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    Thanks for that Con. I have 5 or so quotes back so far and the variation in pricing and spec is broad. It's interesting that you mention Huawei as being the expensive option. As on the quotes I've gotten to date? It comes out as the cheaper option. The prices below were all quoted for Limerick City install and are gross, without grant applied.

    3.6kwp system (9 longi panels) with Solis inverter and pylontech battery. €12400

    3.6kwp system (12 Jinko panels)with Solis inverter and puredrive battery (Inc BER). €12350

    3.6kwp system (12 Jinko panels) with Solis inverter and no battery (BER included). €9850

    3.6kwp system (9 Jinko panels) with Huawei Inverter and no battery. €9300

    7.56kwp (18 Jinko panels, 10 of these would N facing) system with Huawei Inverter and 5kwh battery. €19215

    4KW system (10 leapton PV Panels) Solis single phase 5G inverter, €8,200

    4KW system (10 leapton PV Panels) Solis single phase 5G inverter, 5.1kwh CFE battery, €11,100

    Only one provider includes a BER but that does seem to be more than offset by utilising lower cost (not quality) equipment. The gain that seems apparent on that offer is more than offset by booking my own assessor.

    I contacted 5 companies, so far I have quotes back from **Now 4** and?

    It really does seem to be the same story as often is in Ireland. Grant is being swallowed by both price rises and further price "matching". I'm in no huge rush to get the job done and tbh? At current pricing it may well become a DIY job if I can get an electrician cousin to spare me a few days.

    Post edited by banie01 on


  • Registered Users Posts: 87 ✭✭smax71


    I've received the following quote for a 6kwp system, 15 Tiger neo 400w panels, 6kw sofar inverter, 5kwh dyness battery and eddi €15.4k (€13k net of grant). I think the battery is €2.5k so panel installation net of grant and less eddi is €9,900 which works out at €1,650 per kw. This is a fair bit more expensive than the €1.2k per kw guide price but just wondering to what extent that guide is currently achievable for a 6kwp system



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,571 ✭✭✭con747


    Don't expect anything from life, just be grateful to be alive.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,571 ✭✭✭con747


    Small systems have always been overpriced lately. If you can go down the DIY route you should save money even loosing out on the grant if you can't avail of it. As above look at post #4241

    Don't expect anything from life, just be grateful to be alive.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,077 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    Certainly seems that way and it's similar to the circumstances I noticed around the difference in pricing pre & post the insulation grant coming in.

    I had pumped cavity wall insulation with bonded beads in a 3 bed semi and it cost me @ €800 at the time. A year later the grant came in and my neighbour paid €1400 less the grant.

    The Irish habit of a grant being seen by installers as additional margin is very frustrating.



  • Registered Users Posts: 87 ✭✭smax71


    Ok so if I adjust for larger battery my quote is €2.5k more expensive than Optoon 3 of that post. Will have to look further



  • Registered Users Posts: 118 ✭✭simpsimp


    I have Givenergy inverter and battery.

    There are pros and cons.

    Pro: software is good, there's an API (which is novel), battery is relatively keenly priced, support seems good

    Con: You're locked into the battery brand with this inverter, there is an ongoing battery bug which some users are affected by*

    * See https://community.givenergy.cloud/d/713-firmware-3007-has-not-fixed-sudden-soc-drop-to-0-problem

    Overall I have no major complaints, but good to be aware of the above



  • Registered Users Posts: 824 ✭✭✭HotSwap


    When you’re comparing battery’s look at the spec sheet and what the Max charge / discharge rate is.

    if your battery’s max discharge rate is 3kwh and your home is drawing 4kwh; even if you have a full battery your still gonna pull in 1kwh from the grid. Really this defeats one of the main reasons of getting the battery.

    also if your battery’s max charge rate is 3kwh; and you have a smart tariff like Night boost from EI, which only gives a 2H window 2-4am at the lowest rate; you would only be able to pull in 6kwh in this period. So if you had a 10kWh battery 40% of its charge would not be as

    price is a major consideration of course; but if you care enough to be posting here; look a bit deeper than price too. Also good to consider that a system with a hybrid inverter will be more efficient than a system with one inverter for PV and another inverter built into the battery.



  • Registered Users Posts: 884 ✭✭✭eclipsechaser


    System has been installed and is going live tomorrow - thank you very much for all the advice on here.

    10.4kW panels.

    6kW hybrid inverter.

    15kWh PureDrive batteries (3x5kWh, two new and one lightly used one sourced by myself and included in the price below)

    Eddi Diverter

    Harvi

    Zappi EV Charging Point

    €16,300 after grants. I think that's reasonable enough.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 87 ✭✭smax71


    If the charging point price is included in that figure that's a brilliant price. Scaling up my current quote to a 10kwp system/15kwh battery would give a total price after grant of €22,000 and that doesnt even include a zappi. It almost seems too good to be true. Love to know the installer!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭DC999



    Out of curiosity on the Huawei battery, what's the max discharge rate in kWh and same for max charge rate? Afaik some batteries have a higher discharge for a short amount of time, like a kettle boiling or hair dryer. But then it drops. So it can't do sustained loads at the higher output.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 827 ✭✭✭tonysopprano


    Newbie question: if I have 2x batteries @ discharge rate of 3kwh, can I draw 6kwh

    If you can do the job, do it. If you can't do the job, just teach it. If you really suck at it, just become a union executive or politician.



  • Registered Users Posts: 824 ✭✭✭HotSwap


    It’s 7kw for 10seconds and then 5kW sustained till it’s totally discharged. But between 5kW-7kw is a grey area that’s not documented but it can sustain over 5 and less than 7 for much longer than 10 seconds. That’s assuming you have 2 of the 5kWh modules; adding a 3rd module only adds capacity not any extra charge / discharge speed / etc…

    The solar edge is comparable in charge / discharge rates; but hard to source in IE unless you bring it in from EEL in Belfast (but the prices are good as you can avoid VAT legally if you structure things correctly)

    most of the low voltage battery’s seem to top out at about 3.6kwh charge / discharge which is way too low for me. But I may of missed something in my research.



  • Registered Users Posts: 824 ✭✭✭HotSwap


    It’s a good question. It depends; if it’s 2 modules that are daisy chained together then prob not.

    But if it’s 2 totally independent batteries each with their own inverter then yes; but in this case you would need to be careful that you are still complying with ESB networks limits that you have agreed with them; as you could be exporting more than they are expecting.

    What manufacturer are you talking about? Or is this a hypothetical question?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 827 ✭✭✭tonysopprano


    Purely hypothetical, as trying to gain as much knowledge for future project.

    If you can do the job, do it. If you can't do the job, just teach it. If you really suck at it, just become a union executive or politician.



  • Registered Users Posts: 884 ✭✭✭eclipsechaser


    It was the well-known lads from Fermanagh but I should point out that I did have a few things going for me with the price.

    1) The original quote was given in April 2022. They honoured that price in late August 2022.

    2) They hadn't done a site inspection and so ended up putting up a load more panels than they had originally quoted. So I was able to make a deal on the day for the extras.

    3) The extra lightly used battery from one of the boardsies (hi!) here was 1/3 off the retail price.

    4) I booked them for 2 installation jobs (one for me, one for a family member close by) so I was able to haggle a little there.

    I guess all the little savings added up to give a reasonable final figure. Again, thanks to everyone here for all the guidance. I can't wait to finally be able to post in the daily PV production thread.

    Post edited by eclipsechaser on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,862 ✭✭✭creedp


    Good to know. Ive a bit of work to do to get anywhere near that figure. Good luck with your installation



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,077 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    I'm quoting myself here to allow everyone to compare and contrast the self importation option that I received a couple of quotes for today.

    Hey all.

    The struggle to find a balance between performance, value and installation costs is continuing.

    I do have a cousin who is a RECI sparks and I am more and more leaning towards a self install at this point.

    I am struggling to see the benefit in going down the grant route other than for immediate ease of installation and hopefully though it may it never be needed? Local support.

    I dropped an email to a Chinese supplier yesterday and was surprised to have a response this morning given its CNY and they are still recovering 😉

    Anyway, I got a quote for an 11 panel system, with options for 415w or 550w with Growatt hybrid inverter, 5kwh (44.8kwh usable) battery, brackets, cables connectors and ancillaries all items CE certfied and compliant .

    With an FOB cost to Shanghai of $4558.

    Shipping and VAT gives a ballpark landed figure of €5500 for a well specced system with a battery versus @ €10k for similar fitted locally with grant.

    That's quite a bit cheaper than anything I've had quoted locally even for a 3.6kw PV only system, with no battery and inclusive of grant.

    Now the downsides are obviously no local support or agent. Any warranty issue will need to be dealt with via China.

    For some?

    The immediate saving will be worth that risk, but it is IMO a risk.Has anyone here gone down this route, ordered their own kit and arranged installation?

    How did go for you?

    What would you differently?

    And most importantly?

    Was it worth it?



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  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,425 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    As your cousin is in the trade, they could " do the purchasing though a trade account with the likes of midsummer, solartricity, Kelliher Electrical etc. (Trade discount on midsummer is 10-20%)

    Could be a new aspect of his business, and a soft start with you!



This discussion has been closed.
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